pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

The 2010 list was so bad. They managed to redeem themselves with this one somewhat.

The 2010 list was more interesting from a music discovery perspective, probably because they had a one song per artist rule. The new list has more variety and is more inclusive, but has too much stuff I already know.

Shania is great and has way better songs.

“M!IFLAW!” is one of my all-time favorite songs; I was very pleased to see it on the list!

I’m surprised by the number of noise rock and metal albums.

I laughed.

The 80s albums list had so much metal. Mercyful Fate, Iron Maiden, Godflesh. Where did pitchfork's metal people go?

a decent fistful of the most important 90s metal was made by some pretty awful people, even if in some cases (Darkthrone) they're people who appear to have grown out of their edgelordisms, and leaving those people off a 90s albums list -- it's a valid flex afaic, I can dig it. in any case American indie fuxxors broadly speaking don't get interested in metal until there's a viable American scene (this is hilarious to me but is true; the tipping point is that awful Agalloch album from like '04), and that American scene is how they get pointed at the good 80s shit. 90s metal wasn't appealing to the Pitchforkers of the 90s and even though Candlemass, Cathedral, Meshuggah, Dark Tranquility, Morbid Angel, etc etc etc all belong on such a list, I think the ship has sailed

Sleep's Holy Mountain would have been enough for me.

And Nu Metal might have seen some rehabilitation in recent years, but not that much.

a decent fistful of the most important 90s metal was made by some pretty awful people,

Yes, unlike Ace of Base

https://www.vice.com/en/article/rm35nr/ace-of-bases-secret-nazi-past

Well their nazi past was secret.

Slipknot was '99 and they're good people. Reducing it to "all metal is problematic" is kinda dumb and I hope that's not actually what's going on here.

Very funny that Morrissey and Kozolek got scrubbed from the list but a literal Nazi gets to be on there because Stephanie Tanner sang his song on Full House

At least one Beherit album in the top 10 would have been enough to satisfy me.

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Anyone else think it may be time for a new thread? There's no way I'm clicking this.

Sadly Candlemass was fucking rotten in the 90s

ready for #34985859340293849495

i feel like early '90s death metal's brush with the mainstream is exactly the sort of thing that should be catalogued in these canonization exercises but good luck getting maybe fiveish metal ppl to agree on what the best morbid angel record after altars is

regardless my songs ballot should've had "god of emptiness" on it

But that would have required sacrificing one of four Third Eye Blind songs.

There's plenty of P4k-adjacent alt-leaning metal they could have went with (Sleep, Faith No More, Kyuss, Deftones, Korn, Neurosis, Earth, Body Count, Sepultura, Melvins, Boris, Dillinger, Botch, Helmet) without having to go full Gorguts, but ultimately wgas

exactly

Any website list that has 'Believe' in it as one of the best songs is obviously a joke of a site.

It's a joke that too many people take way too seriously.

take it to the youtube comments

I'm gonna guess lack of consensus is what ultimately keeps Ween out of lists like this. Though I suppose if enough people cared, Chocolate & Cheese might be where Pitchfork would settle.

it's probably the stink of neckbeards. no nb-approved music gets the P4k cosign these days. take it to Fantano

anyone who doesn't like "believe" is a joke

korn made the singles list

xps

it's true if these bands wanted to be on the list they should have cultivated less obnoxious fanbases

Or more obnoxious fanbases.

there are different flavours of obnoxiousness but 90s altdude obnoxiousness really isn't in right now. it had a good run

Out with the obnoxious fanbase and in with the obnoxious stanbase.

Again, a lot of weird assumptions. You're implicitly accusing writers of bad faith. You're assuming writers love "Hold On" and The Bodyguard because they're popular. Well, gee.

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, September 28, 2022 8:51 AM

thank you for this. i'm going to attempt a retort but am typing on mobile and not having any real big ideas about all this besides what i've already said. essentially moka otm: improvements all around, we can complain but this is the best version yet.

anyway-

my thoughts about music that i found annoying as an 11 year old are accusatory, apparently?

lol - okay, so be it.

c'mon alfred. nothing i post is ever a shot at anyone in particular. seems a bit of an overreaction to say such things. don't know how this list was compiled but if enough people defended things like celine dion as "the best" of the decade to be mentioned alongside digable planets and mobb deep - well, idk but that doesn't square with how i remember things. just because (proverbial) you knew it didn't mean it was well liked.

further (and preemptive apologies to all) if that pernicious influence and the "social implications" are a considered factor, i should think that things like the uber pop stuff mentioned would be immediately disqualified on the grounds that it wasn't music that stayed very relevant to any sort of culture beyond "what's popular."

somewhat of a sidebar but- to riff on that "influence and social idea" thing on the other end of the spectrum, "ain't no fun (if the homies can't have none)" is without question one of the most beloved hiphop songs of the decade, but it's complete smut and certainly won't win any awards for political correctness and/or inclusiveness. doesn't change the fact that it's a sick beat with tons of hooks that are fun to sing along with. sidebar to the sidebar: will "w.a.p." make any decade wrap-ups?

again, no shots at anyone but nobody i knew under the age of 40 liked some of the music mentioned in these lists and, i dunno, that's not why i want to read this sort of thing. i don't think i've ever been in pfork's demographic and it's become even more clear with this new list - comically so.

(and most of that laughter is definitely at myself)

again: can a list like this be so bad when it starts such conversations? hard to stay upset, i suppose. or maybe i'm just getting old.

thanks for reading.💙

I know what you mean Austin. I was hoping for some real discoveries on these lists rather than reminders of popular fare that weren't exactly highlights of my youth.

i feel like early '90s death metal's brush with the mainstream is exactly the sort of thing that should be catalogued in these canonization exercises but good luck getting maybe fiveish metal ppl to agree on what the best morbid angel record after altars is

Gateways. Fight me

Breihan defended "Hold On" last year:

https://www.stereogum.com/2161122/the-number-ones-wilson-phillips-hold-on/columns/the-number-ones/amp/

I disagree on basically every point xpsbl re: Austin

I'd like to hear better criticisms than the "they sold out by including whitney instead of shellac" type grouching that seems to be what a lot of the online reaction comes down to

I Wanna Dance with Somebody is one of the greatest songs ever.

I Will Always Love You is one of the worst songs ever.

xxpost Then it's settled

i mean, my friends and i liked to make fun of wilson phllips - that's a nice memory of them.

and i should state my bias: as ever, i was mainly a hiphop and r+b fan throughout the decade, so seeing such mentions alongside outkast and odb is quite amusing. very much "lolgtfo" reaction.

Very funny that Morrissey and Kozolek got scrubbed from the list but a literal Nazi gets to be on there because Stephanie Tanner sang his song on Full House

I mean this is just qed for the general read on this whole exercise, right? scrub the stuff we now feel like we'd need to make untenable excuses for, include the stuff people won't come at us about. Joker from AoB has been, at least apologetic about the genuinely foul shit he got up to as a teen ("we didn't write the songs" kinda doesn't wash with this shit though - as the Vice piece about it put it, "I just can't imagine a full recovery from this sort of hatred" -- the EP he made is actual nazi skinhead shit, worst of the worst.) So I suspect that the working algorithm here is "if there's general agreement among a broad segment of our readership that //person// hasn't answered for their shit, they're non grata, and if most readers won't care, we don't either"

My fav Whitney songs are My Love Is Your Love and It's Not Right But It's Okay. I've seen neither in these sorts of lists.

I'd like to hear better criticisms than the "they sold out by including whitney instead of shellac" type grouching that seems to be what a lot of the online reaction comes down to

well, in order to keep its readership happy p4k didn't even review Mariah Carey albums until 2014. I imagine that old audience feels a bit jilted.

old audience ain't supplying the precious clicks

xost to left- thank you for that, but i don't think that was my gripe at all. more of a confusion on my end. maybe this can clarify: i am decidedly not a mariah carey fan, but if any of her songs were to be the top pick, i'm really happy it was that one. "selling out" or whatever doesn't matter to me. i loved rawkus records, but i wasn't so much of an elitist that i didn't have that mariah 12" single too.

reiterating: not a terrible list, just a confusing one at times.

For my own fun, albums which are probably in my top 50 albums ever but aren't here: Dog Man Star, Jehovahkill, The Holy Bible, Experience, Dig Your Own Hole, 13, Now Is Early, D. I. Go Pop, Apple Venus Volume 1, The Beta Band, Sing to God, Casanova, Guerrilla, Remedy, Pre-Millennium Tension, Beaucoup Fish, Holiday. I do realise these are all British except the last.

jilted readers- they're not shy about it on twitter. which is weird since the hip thing to was always to hate(read) old-p4k and complain about how bad it was, not celebrate it and mourn its passing

austin- sorry I didn't mean to attribute that sentiment to you specifically

Anyone else think it may be time for a new thread? There's no way I'm clicking this.

― jmm, Wednesday, September 28, 2022 11:23 AM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ending the thread with a spate of lamentations that Pitchfork is covering pop music would be appropriately full-circle.

the revolution betrayed

I'm not going to spew any elitist bullshit, but Wilson Phillips, Mariah Carey? Oh my fucking God. I'll stay for a little while to see if P-Fork still serves my needs, but with today's front page, I'm not counting on it. I understand the career move, but I just don't think it's going to serve me any more.