Another thing (and maybe this discussion should be taken to a Patti Smith thread) I loved about seeing Patti is the obvious warmth and affection she and Lenny Kaye have for each other. It really came through on stage and not as rehearsed banter of musicians but as the sort of small talk/looks a married couple might have after all that time.
― Abel Ferrara hard-sci-fi elevator pitch (PBKR), Tuesday, 13 September 2022 22:13 (one year ago) link
man Burt Bacharach is some tepid overrated crowd-pleasing garbage, wtf y'all
absolutely do not get the appeal, novelty songs at best and cloying Hallmark sentimentality at worst
― sleeve, Sunday, 12 February 2023 16:25 (one year ago) link
What the world needs nowIs drugsSweet drugs
― waiting for a czar to fall (Neanderthal), Sunday, 12 February 2023 16:44 (one year ago) link
He didn't write lyrics -- are you accusing the music of being sappy?
Bacharach co-wrote garbage during and after his peak period, but if you don't get what Dionne Warwick accomplished with "Walk On By" or Aretha with "I Say a Little Prayer," then, yeah, wtf
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 12 February 2023 16:51 (one year ago) link
I have thankfully never investigated enough to be aware that he didn't write lyrics, that explains a lot but also begs the question of why he hitched his music to such terrible words
"Walk On By" is OK I guess, but remember I dislike most pop anyway
― sleeve, Sunday, 12 February 2023 16:54 (one year ago) link
“do you know the way to San Jose” is basically prog rock
― not too strange just bad audio (brimstead), Sunday, 12 February 2023 17:03 (one year ago) link
I won't go as far as sleeve, I find myself feeling impressed by the complex songwriting and Warwick's vocal prowess, but can't really connect with it beyond that.
― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Sunday, 12 February 2023 17:05 (one year ago) link
david's lyrics are a notch above a lot of the pop chart pap of the era
― sault bae (voodoo chili), Sunday, 12 February 2023 17:09 (one year ago) link
that said, i will never like “what the world needs now is love,” yuck
― sault bae (voodoo chili), Sunday, 12 February 2023 17:10 (one year ago) link
the best fake Bacharach song is “going out of my head” but that’s probably not controversial l
― not too strange just bad audio (brimstead), Sunday, 12 February 2023 17:11 (one year ago) link
when it comes to "Walk On By" it's Smith & Mighty > Sybil >>>> Gabrielle >>>>> Dionne
― boxedjoy, Sunday, 12 February 2023 17:34 (one year ago) link
Sybil's version of "Don't Make Me Over" was my intro.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 12 February 2023 17:39 (one year ago) link
What do you get when you kiss a girl
You get enough germs to catch pneumonia
After you do, she'll never phone ya
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 12 February 2023 20:13 (one year ago) link
“do you know the way to San Jose” is basically prog rock― not too strange just bad audio (brimstead), Sunday, February 12, 2023 12:03 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― not too strange just bad audio (brimstead), Sunday, February 12, 2023 12:03 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
It also has some of the most devastatingly sad lyrics of any pop song, brilliant contrast with the deceptively cheery music.
― J. Sam, Sunday, 12 February 2023 21:49 (one year ago) link
taylor swift, bewyonce, drake and kendrick lamar aren't good
― CerebralCaustic, Monday, 13 February 2023 02:34 (one year ago) link
A challenging opinion
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 13 February 2023 02:51 (one year ago) link
People call me rudeI wish we were all nude
― unknown blues singer (morrisp), Monday, 13 February 2023 03:02 (one year ago) link
phil spector is overrated, wall of sound was not a great and novel idea, be my baby would've been a massive tune with any production
― corrs unplugged, Monday, 13 March 2023 08:26 (one year ago) link
his slurry is honestly a drag to listen to and takes way too much attention away from the performers (in the end product and in its critical reception)
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, 13 March 2023 10:48 (one year ago) link
― corrs unplugged, Monday, March 13, 2023 4:26 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
Well, I agree with the third part of that
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 13 March 2023 11:41 (one year ago) link
Spector wrote Be My Baby though with a couple other people, he wrote most, close to all of his hits
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 12:28 (one year ago) link
Looking at the credits to the Back to Mono comp it seems the only track where Spector has sole writing credits is "To Know Him Is to Love Him", not really a massive tune
But yeah, he does get a writing credit (that seems like more than a producer's writing credit) on many great songs
― corrs unplugged, Monday, 13 March 2023 13:27 (one year ago) link
there was a big Hoffman thread with a variety of takes, but my takeaway was that it was definitely more than a Elvis tax thing and his contributions likely varied, could be a writing a bridge or punching up certain things, lyricc, or just the arrangements, or more trad cowrites. I suppose that whole era was such a machine, so many people had their hands on the songs. but I think he made significant contributions, it's just hard to tease out in the era before the Beatles/Dylan/singer-songwriter paradigm
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 14:13 (one year ago) link
I made a related observation re: Spector last year (to general disinterest)!
― reluctant antonoff appreciator (morrisp), Monday, 13 March 2023 14:29 (one year ago) link
agreed re: general sentiment of spector being overrated. i don't care if he solely wrote every song he ever worked on, it's very milquetoast music and definitely stuff i think of as "dated" in a bad way by now. maybe wrong vibe for thread but i always considered him one of the great "villains" of rock and roll and subsequently have no issues diminishing his contributions. not meaning to be malicious and he was involved in some classic jams, i've just never understood "the big deal."
(also my thoughts on spector are very much informed by david axelrod's take on him: all that "wall of sound" bullshit created a nightmare for the engineer in those small ass studios spector used to use; that engineer probably deserves a lot more credit for making the idea happen than spector deserves for simply proposing it.)
― ''can be prusuaded to show gayness'' (Austin), Monday, 13 March 2023 14:48 (one year ago) link
I certainly rank Shadow Morton a bit higher among girl group producers.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 13 March 2023 14:50 (one year ago) link
xp I just thumbed thru the index of an interview book with various producers, and they definitely give Spector credit in various ways, for knowing exactly what he wanted and how to get it (even while talking about how his engineers knew the "formula" for producing the sound).
...and hey, here's Alan Parsons agreeing with my general take:
These days when you hear even the great '60s records on CD, my god, there are a few fluffs and bungles in there. I mean, the so-called Phil Spector 'Wall of Sound' may have sounded good on the radio, but if you hear it on CD it's got a few deficiencies...
― reluctant antonoff appreciator (morrisp), Monday, 13 March 2023 14:58 (one year ago) link
is it a fault for him to have been producing for the primary medium through which his records would be heard in the real world? (AM transistor radio)
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:15 (one year ago) link
but i guess i don't buy that the arrangements and production don't mean anything, "be my baby" is a great song and was a great song played on the piano in the writing process, but is it a HIT without those drumbeats at the beginning? i don't know. whether that beat was spector or someone else or just the session drummer doing something cool on the fly (wiki says it was hal blaine doing it at the suggestion of jack nitzche (who himself played a big role in the wall of sound)
or in a totally different example, i was watching a brian jones doc and someone in the film pointed out that yes he didn't write "under by thumb" or "paint it black", but did those songs become hits because of the words and chord or because of his marimba part or his sitar part? i take a lot of exception to what we consider "songwriting" in general, it's still all derived from the sheet music industry
or like zep's "when the levee breaks" - was that memphis minnie? page's arrangement...or...I would argue the single most important part of that song is bonham's drumbeat
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:21 (one year ago) link
xp Of course it’s not his “fault”; it just doesn’t sound so great now
― reluctant antonoff appreciator (morrisp), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:31 (one year ago) link
(fwiw, I'm also not sure I agree that "Be My Baby" would have been just as big a hit with other production!)
― reluctant antonoff appreciator (morrisp), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:43 (one year ago) link
It would sound just as good on a strummed acoustic etc etc
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:44 (one year ago) link
or on a player piano
I mean it's clearly a masterpiece
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 13 March 2023 15:47 (one year ago) link
It's a great song for sure, but surely it may have not as big a hit without that beat, etc. (though I guess corrs unplugged technically said "a massive tune")
― reluctant antonoff appreciator (morrisp), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:50 (one year ago) link
i just wish the alan parsons project could have had the chance to do "be my baby" justice
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:51 (one year ago) link
Bearing in mind [usual disclaimer about how I don't know shit about music]; I don't think I agree that it would work as well with different production. I feel like a lot of the real hooks of "Be My Baby" are created by contrast against the Wall of Sound - the isolated intro drumbeats giving way to it, the vocals alternately blending with it and emerging out of it.
― Lily Dale, Monday, 13 March 2023 15:54 (one year ago) link
think it's also besides the point, like, a great song that is greatly enhanced by the production will probably sound pleasant/enjoyable without that production, but not necessarily *as* good, and that takes nothing away from the role the production played.
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:56 (one year ago) link
it's kinda like "anybody coulda thrown 42 touchdowns with Isaac Bruce and Torrey Holt" type energy
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:57 (one year ago) link
shit acoustic covers of big pop songs are the lowest form of music
― satori enabler (Noodle Vague), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:58 (one year ago) link
Lol otm
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Monday, 13 March 2023 15:59 (one year ago) link
Parson's larger point (if you're really interested) was what amazing stuff '60s producers were able to achieve with limited production technology – It used to be part of the job, fighting to get all these great sounds. It inspired you. Now you can get them at the push of a button, and while that's benefited the overall sound quality of the music I don't think it's benefited the music itself.
― reluctant antonoff appreciator (morrisp), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:02 (one year ago) link
i generally agree with this but there's no possible way i could have known that's what he meant by what you posted.
alot of the real hooks of "Be My Baby" are created by contrast against the Wall of Sound - the isolated intro drumbeats giving way to it, the vocals alternately blending with it and emerging out of it.
this is part of the production and arrangement!
basically, spector is a piece of shit on every level, glad he he died in prison.
the wall of sound is great and immediate, when i was a kid and heard "be my baby" on oldies radio is just sounded great, you don't have to think about it or have it explained, that's why millions of kids fell in love with it. it just jumps out of the speakers. and that's because they *aren't* perfect sounding records, they are *exciting* sounding records.
spector's legend definitely minimizes the contributions of other players, writers, producers and performers who were just as important as he was to them being great records.
but to pretend like it wasn't a great sound and hugely influential on the beach boys, the beatles, springsteen, and many other artists and producers is silly. springsteen and brian wilson very open about emulating it.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:04 (one year ago) link
I can't imagine "Be My Baby" drums without the echo!
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:04 (one year ago) link
Spector productions are ground zero for songs vs. records. He made great records.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:05 (one year ago) link
there's no possible way i could have known that's what he meant by what you posted.
I know, that's why I expanded on it! (I felt I owed it to Parsons to elaborate, given your uncharitable dig/interpretation of the brief initial passage I posted)
― reluctant antonoff appreciator (morrisp), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:08 (one year ago) link
no i gotcha, was kinda being a dick to alan parsons
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:12 (one year ago) link
this is more like it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2uJEMqPYk
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:13 (one year ago) link
i hear reverb, disrespecting the purity of the song
― satori enabler (Noodle Vague), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:15 (one year ago) link
also if you play the chords with any elaboration you're disrespecting the purity of the song. actually playing an instrument is disrespecting the purity of the song
― satori enabler (Noodle Vague), Monday, 13 March 2023 16:16 (one year ago) link
that was what I meant?
― Lily Dale, Monday, 13 March 2023 16:30 (one year ago) link