Joni Mitchell: Classic or Dud

From reading threads from the early days of this board, it seems there was much more of a tendency for everyone to comment on everything, whether they liked it (or understood it) or not. Getting everybody's opinion on everything was more of a priority.

I think it has a lot to do with her becoming big in the early 70s rather than early 80s and therefore she was basically asking to be taken down

A lot of insecurity and hot takes around 60s/early 70s classic rock canon

Good observation by poster Halfway there but you!

Having been part of it all, I can confirm that this was somewhat the case.

This is probably buried somewhere in WXRT's archives, but I remember some '00s episode of Sound Opinions where Jim DeRogatis mentioned that Joni would pop up in so many interviews with everyone from Prince to some death metal guitarist or a DJ or whatever, everything you can imagine, and they would mention Joni as one of their very biggest inspirations. Like she appealed to so many very different people in a big way.

Yep. I'm always amused by how many white people are surprised by the devotion of her Black fans.

a smarter person than myself said something very cliche about music being a universal language for all people.

also can confirm: several years working in music retail (corporate + independent) made it very clear that joni has cred with every niche and subscene in existence. and with good reason.

See Greg Tate, "How Black Is Joni Mitchell?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPHl6PcutH4

Hejira destroying me again this morning, as it always does. For some reason the vocal on "Amelia" is very present, the tiny falterings and phrasings are so moving.

just a false alarm

hejira on my personal goat shortlist

Between the start of ILM and now, I've had own turnaround on Joni. I probably never said anything dismissive about her here or elsewhere, but I just didn't get it. One day a few years ago, I decided to try out the Dog Eat Dog album to see what she was up to in the 80s and GODDAM it finally clicked. Went back and could appreciate all the prior work like I never had before. Probably not how most people come around, but it worked out that way for me.

same

ewhen i turned the corner on her (5+ years ago now, what is time idk) even ghe. I still didnt get Heijera at all - last year i watched a Jaco documentary & was like WAIT omgomg i get it now

when I started collecting records I borrowed my mom's crate of old records, maybe 30-40 albums, collected haphazardly in the 70s

among them was Hejira, and it looked to me like a minor album, I hadn't heard of it before, it was probably nothing special, but oh well it was the only Joni album I had, put it on and I was just floored, had never heard anything like it

all time favorite

New 72-75 box set coming out

I didn't get into Heijera right away, partly because I knew "Coyote" from The Last Waltz - in retrospect that wasn't a great way to discover the song. The album really feels best appreciated as an album rather than broken down by track.

Jaco is really great on it. It was an inspired choice to have him on there, and he's also good on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter (which is flawed but IMHO could've been a fairly solid single LP if they dropped some of the tracks). I actually prefer hearing Jaco on Joni's albums rather than the Weather Report records that made his name. (I love Mysterious Traveller and some of the earlier stuff, but as their music gradually transformed into Heavy Weather, my interest declined with it.)

Jaco makes those songs but yeah the only other stuff of his I can get behind is Metheny’s Bright Sized Life (recommended for Hejira fans)

Jaco's debut solo album is really nice too, features Herbie Hancock on most of the tracks.

Jaco is a great foil, for sure, and the record sounds amazing, but Joni’s brilliance has always been the topline melody and phrasing which skitter and slide over the music.

Oh God, yes, her phrasing.

Just the way she says "Behind the popular soooongg" gives me chills.

*the way she sings

jaco is good as fuck

if anyone wants peak joni`n`jaco, mingus is pretty alright.

I've been obsessing over "Car on a Hill" for some time now.

Joni talked in the Jaco documentary i watched (the Robert Trujillo one that came out a couple years ago) about how working with Jaco was like they were painting on a canvas together, they were each painting with different color, diff brushstrokes but ultimately creating the same thing together

i may be misremembering & horribly paraphrasing as its been a while since i watched but just that idea of him as a brushstroke was the spark for me that helped me “get it” bc before that i was very stuck on not liking the ~sound~ of his bass & v new to his kind of music & free jazz etc etc so i wasn’t really hearing him terms of the whole song until she said that? then i was like WHOA ok YES
idk hard to explain

There are very, very few instruments I can’t stand the sound of, and the electric fretless bass guitar is one of them. But Hejira is one of my all-time favorite records, at least in part due to Jaco’s playing. I don’t like him on anything else he’s played on. Shrug emoji.

^^ Same.

And after listening to Hejira the first or fourth time, I resigned myself to being all wrong about Jaco. Went back and listened to some of his other stuff. Relieved to find that nope, it's just him with Joni that I can take for more than five minutes.

Even for a fretless bass Jaco's tone is very specific, I think it's the bridge pickup of a Fender Jazz turned all the way up and the neck pickup turned all the way down. Not my favorite tone, but hey, he owned it.

Just to underline Jaco's singularity, imagine Pino Palladino in his stead.

Same here on the fretless bass. What is it about that sound that sucks so bad? I put off listening to Hejira for a while because I expected it to bother me but it fits with the music just right.

Lou Reed's later stuff has a lot of problems, but Fernando Saunders makes it unlistenable.

It sounds like liquid.

it sounds like this

https://tenor.com/qkcC.gif

ugh

it sounds like this
https://c.tenor.com/xvtjWxR-looAAAAS/when-harry-met-sally-billy-crystal.gif

Fretless bass is great you are all heathens

It's how you use it and what kind of fretless - like an upright fretless is very common. Rick Danko used a fretless on The Band (see "Cripple Creek"), Freebo used one on some early Bonnie Raitt tracks like "You’ve Been In Love Too Long" on Takin’ My Time and Sting used one with the Police ("Don’t Stand So Close To Me" on Zenyatta Mondatta).

There's a documentary where she tells an anecdote about auditioning a bassist (not Jaco or Larry Klein). She told the bassist to play a B, and he was confused and said, "But... there's not even a B _in_ that chord!" And she said, exasperatedly, "Well there WILL be, when you PLAY it."

I love this anecdote. Jaco would have played the B and made it work. Klein would have shrugged and done what she asked.

Upright bass is fine. Electric fretless bass sounds like sped up whale call.

no, literally no instruments have a "this sounds like THIS" character, everything is down to usage and context.

y’all have taught yourselves to hate fretless bass

Lou Reed's later stuff has a lot of problems, but Fernando Saunders makes it unlistenable.

― Cow_Art, Thursday, July 28, 2022 3:02 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

come on

brad otm teaching myself to unhate it was great fun though.

when i think of fretless i think of japan, who rule. that is all.

japan+jaco so very crucial to "getting it" wrt fretless ebass

good call on Japan

Hejira rules, 30% b/c of Jaki imho

xxxxpost You find all of this unlistenable?

with Lou Reed
The Blue Mask (1982)
Legendary Hearts (1983)
Live in Italy (1984)
New Sensations (1984)
Mistrial (1986)
Set the Twilight Reeling (1996)
Perfect Night: Live in London (1998)
Ecstasy (2000)
The Raven (2003)
Animal Serenade (2004)
Berlin: Live at St. Ann's Warehouse (2008)
Film
A Night with Lou Reed (1983)
Coney Island Baby: Live in Jersey (Lou Reed) (1987)
Lou Reed: Rock and Roll Heart (1998)
Lou Reed: Live at Montreux (2000)
Prozac Nation (2001)
Spanish Fly: Lou Reed Live in Spain (2005)
Berlin: Live at St. Ann's Warehouse (Lou Reed-Julian Schnabel) (2008)

yah really

Yes

But maybe it's just because I myself stll rely on the training wheels of actual frets.

There’s a few there that I haven’t tried, but I have had most of those and sold them back. Apart from the occasional song, everything about his sound went sour.

The kids summer camp is about 35 minutes away and we’ve been doing some focused listening to classic albums. My girls are very taken with Blue. In the middle of River the 7 year old asked “Why is it so sad?” They ask me questions and I’ve laid the narrative out for them.

<3

y’all have taught yourselves to hate fretless bass

― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Thursday, July 28, 2022 9:25 PM

new permanent board description