Bikini Kill - C or D?

probably not fair. however they may not make punk rock anymore but the RG concerns (all hands) and influence are still there. haha postriotgrrrlism!

I think that the latter part of this sentence is still pretty much the case in most societal outposts.

Also it's quite troubling to me that a lot of the outward signifiers of riot grrrl -- NB i was really into riot grrrl music in late high school/early college but very removed from the actual organization, in (probably larger than I want to admit) part because of old adolescent female wounds that made me fairly wary of dealing with large groups of women -- got turned inside-out and transformed into badges for younger women who would rather be fat than feminist. But perhaps that's fodder for a different discussion? Or is that the end result of what Kate cites as 'simplistic' political imagery?

And in case you were wondering: 'Carnival,' 'Feels Blind,' 'New Radio,' and pretty much all of PUSSY WHIPPED are classic, 'Reject All American' pretty dud.

There you go proving my point again. As Kool as Cool Thing was, the song PREDATES riot grrl by about five years.

john it was five past midnight!! i am old but not that old

thing is that comment was my feeble attempt that was designed to provoke. and it worked!

''riot grrl is eternal''

OK then so what was the top ten riot grrl alb of the year (and will you vote for it on the wire end of year poll as 'avant' rock).

Yup -- Chels is a good friend of mine, and her thesis rocks. It's called Because and is going to be revised for publication by Routledge, so just keep yer eyes and ears open. :-)

ah, amm and bikini kill (separated by a few years but anyway)...that's what i call 'good' music policy.

Feminist and Riot Grrl are NOT synonymous, though people treat them as if they are. I am a feminist. I am NOT a riot grrl. All dachsunds are dogs, but NOT ALL dogs are dachsunds. Remember basic logic, please.

I'd say nearly everything: Hit It or Quit It early issues (Sonic Youth interviewed in #3); all those great singles by BK, Bratmobile, Tiger Trap, Heavens to Betsy, Huggy Bear; the hilaroius mainstream press coverage; the old arguments that still piss people off; the Zeitgeist contributions of Slant 6, comic book artist Julie Doucet, Lisa Carver, Beat Happening, live concerts by Babes in Toyland, Susie Bright, and, yes, Kim Kim Kim.

Today HIOQI is still going, Bratmobile is still damn exciting live, Hanna is making the best records of her career, Sleater Kinney is Sleater Kinney. We have Bust and Bitch and Punk Planet, and still have Bright and Carver. Ladyfests are popping up across the country. I went to the one in Chicago last year, shortly before 9/11, and came away believing in idealist urges again. The brand name may be history, but Riot Grrrl as a movement/moment is no more or less dead than punk rock...

You're fucking kidding me... I came away from a Ladyfest fest tour wanting to listen to nothing but Eminem and AC/DC. A furious feminist (female) friend went to Ladyfest Chicago and was frankly disgusted.

Who is doing what wrong or right?

The Spice Girls did more (good or bad) for feminism than all of riot grrl put together: DISCUSS.

Same here. In that sense I think KH is the Eminem of riot grrl.

Actually KH reminds of Eminem in many different ways but that would take up more time to explain than I have right now.

And I loved Heavens to Betsy so please don't pull the old "ooh you horrible post-feminist riot grrl hata!" line on me.

I wish Riot Grrl, or anything that approximates it, would have jumped onto sounds like the early days of The Need or Mocket. But nope. (See God Is My Co-Pilot thread)

i DO think riot grrl was a positive, but at this point i'm not particularly interested in debating it. living in olympia has certainly skewed my take on riot grrl and "indie politics" in general, i won't deny that. in two weeks (i think), nancy will be dragging me to homo-a-gogo where they are promising a broad range of art and music representing queer views. but i bet i get a. a lot of video art b. screechy hardcore/fumbling indie/possibly something with a drum machine. and you know what: while i will and should find this incredibly tedious, for the masses of 18-22 girls and boys who attend, for whom this may well be their first exposure to a wider perspective on feminism or queer politics, it may well be "life changing." i find approaching things like riot grrl from the jaded and cynical perspective of an older mind.

as someone who doesn't view riot grrrl as being a genre, i disagree. its right to say they aren't riot grrrl punk, but as with s-k the riot grrrl aspect is still there in political concerns and influences.

All I can say is I find Le Tigre more fun. If I'm being perfectly honest the only Bikini Kill songs I enjoyed were 'Carnival', Rebel Girl' and 'Feels Blind. Whereas I enjoy all of the first Le Tigre album.

I'm trying not to get into the riot grrl, feminist argument here, because 'Bikini Kill classic or dud?' in my opinion should only be about did they sound good? Same as early Public Enemy sounded great regardless of the message.

i disagree with this statement as well. its is clear that the movement has changed as movements do, just like feminism has changed since the 70s. that doesn't mean that its not the same movement - or if it does mean its a different movement, then its one that is inextricably linked to the original one. as for community being a defining feature of riot grrrl, where does that leave someone like me who doesn't belong to a riot grrrl community, and doesn't strictly make punk rock?

their womens night are for "women-born women" only. i've just been reading about protests at their NY gigs re: transphobia on another messageboard i post at. apparently there were even counter-protests protesting the protests.

okay i've found out the real deal on this: its not about them having women-born women only nights at all (urr please excuse this misinformation), its actually that le tigre have refused to sign any petitions against the MWMF policy, and won't state where they stand on the matter. even so, i don't think that counts as indirect transphobia.