Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

When did Shelley say that??

I may have overegged that statement. But he wasn't happy with the sound on EVOL and didn't like the 'first take is best' looser approach on Washing Machine. The latter is from paraphrased quotes in Goodbye 20thC by David Browne, the former I can't recall - maybe the same book or Confusion Is Next?

If I recall correctly SY wanted to record Sister at Sear Sound, with all its vintage tube gear, to get a warmer sound than EVOL. Personally I think EVOL sounds great but I can see why some in the band were disappointed.

Which album, Bad Moon?

Yeah Bad Moon…sorry that wasn’t totally clear

I haven’t read any SY bio to know how much of the material in this period was approached with Shelley’s style in mind or whether he responded in turn to the direction they were taking anyway

I do prefer Shelley’s sound on EVOL to Sister…I get the approach to the latter but it’s too muddy for me; I thought the brighter, reverb-heavier sound of EVOL was more flattering purely as a studio artefact rather than something that was “warmer” or something closer to how they sounded live

while I understand and sympathize with DN skeptics and critics, I've always had a soft spot for it. But as someone who was "there", it was not well received by many of the band's fans at the time (otoh they got a ton of new ones)

I also have to say that the coda of "The Sprawl" is goddamn gorgeous.

― thinkmanship (sleeve), Monday, 4 July 2022 bookmarkflaglink

Their songcraft got really good during DN, that heightens the tension between the abstract stuff (though I'd argue it also enriches the noise), which might've put the older fans off. I found Goo and Dirty a slog in comparison, though they are solid.

I think Dirty in particular is the sound of them trying to figure out where what they do fits in this new commercial paradigm (Goo not so much as its pre-Nevermind and thus pre-the pressure that a band like this could actually get properly big). I think its peaks are majestic - Theresa's Soundworld, Wish Fulfillment, Chapel Hill, Drunken Butterfly - but I don't think it entirely works. The Big Rock Moves are strong and subversive, but the more leftfield stuff feels slightly adrift. I think that's why I love Jet Set so much - they selected to move back into the margins, to not make sense so much, to be wilful and left-handed and anti-anthemic. Wonderful stuff.

I've never been able to get into Daydream Nation, but I like pictures of candles.

controversial opinion: daydream nation's canonical status is totally deserved imho

guys, Daydream Nation rules

It's got
Kissability

it's so soft it makes me hard!

I have given up discussing stuff like "is DN great" but just noting that the slippery slope that ultimately led me to posting on this site was commenting on a Stylus piece that was about finally deciding not to give in to all the peer pressure suggesting that Daydream Nation was a great album and just admitting to oneself (the writer) that it was OK not to like it (which is cool, it is totally fine not to like it!). The reasons they didn't like it were many of the reasons I love it though hah hah. But yeah, Stylus shutting down brought me here all those years ago ...

I am glad that I still love Daydream Nation.

Cross The Breeze is a DN song that deserves more love. A great Kim vocal and the switch ups between the galloping post-hardcore bit and the super-heavy breakdown are thrilling.

Yeah, one of my favourites - intro is also beautiful

'Cross The Breeze is my favorite DN song

Daydream Nation was never a favorite for me, but it's probably the one I put on most often in the last couple of years.

I was seeing Sonic Youth up to Daydream Nation and possibly a bit later. THink my first night in Ireland was to see Sonic Youth in Belfast in 90. Think I didn't see them again until 98 but could be wrong.
But do remember Kilburn National gig in presumably 89.

Another band like the Pixies I never really "got." I did see them open for Pearl Jam in 2000, it was the wrong venue and the wrong crowd for them. I have had Kim's book in my queue forever, I probably should read it.

PEOPLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viF12Mu3-5w

just awesome

what/where is that from? never seen it!

I think it's from that Put Blood in the Music documentary. I remember seeing it about 30 years ago on PBS.

Off top of my head I seem to recall, SY was on an episode of that David Sanborn's 'Night Music' show or am I remembering that wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05ygl9-5dvA

Yep.

yeah that's from Put Blood in the Music

Put Blood In The Music was the South Bank Show shared with John Zorn wasn't it
Like 1/2 hour each.

Was just thinking it was the VU thing but think that was just a similar time period.
Think we had recently got a vcr before that period. So still have some things from then.

It was a documentary aired on pbs in 1989 with sections on Sonic Youth; John Zorn, Ambitious Lovers and Hugo Largo. Don’t know about it airing in the uk.

These are the details for the South Bank Show Put Blood in the Music.

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b7994c2f8

That’s an edit of the original.

the DN candle is a painting by gerhard richter

Off top of my head I seem to recall, SY was on an episode of that David Sanborn's 'Night Music' show or am I remembering that wrong?

― earlnash, Wednesday, July 6, 2022

I'm surprised Debbie Harry and David Sanborn himself didn't join for a duet.

These are the details for the South Bank Show Put Blood in the Music.

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b7994c2f8

Jaysus, RTÉ co-produced that? You wouldn’t see the likes in 2022.

Sanborn plays on SY's ensemble cover of I Wanna Be Your Dog on that ep, IIRC XP

MacDara, perhaps they were co-producers on the South Bank Show as a whole? As Dan Selzer says, this episode was a buy-in (and yes, they junked the Ambitious Lovers and Hugo Largo sections entirely).

I think the Velvet Underground South Bank Show was an in-house job, tho?

the DN candle is a painting by gerhard richter

I had never really thought about the cover art until I saw one of his candle paintings (not the cover one) the first time I went to the art institute of chicago and had serious brain-melting OH SHIT moment.

He was a fan of the band and did not charge for the use of his image.[citation needed] The original, over 7 metres (23 ft) square, is now showcased in Sonic Youth's studio in NYC.[citation needed]

Sister was revelatory for me. You can do that with guitars?!

Daydream Nation even moreso. I got the vinyl for Christmas that year, and among the inner-groove inscriptions was “Star-strangled Bangles.” As someone who loved All Over The Place, but was disappointed with Different Light, I felt that.

Goo felt like, “Let’s do what we know we can do, and what our fans know we can do, but slightly tightened up, and with some digital crispness on the mix. You know, to kind of introduce us to this new audience.” As a holding action, I dug it. I saw them three times in three months that year: headlining November ‘90, opening for Public Enemy December ‘90, and opening for Neil Young & Crazy Horse January (or possibly February) ‘91. On the Public Enemy show, Steve Shelley was channeling Keith Moon like no drummer I’d seen before or since. Which made all subsequent SY records that much more confusing and disappointing; did they anesthetize him after 1991?

Dirty was, “Wait, do you think we can…make a…hit record?!” (No, you can’t.)

Experimental struck me as, “Remember the spirit that used to motivate us? Because I’m not sure I do.”

Washing Machine was, “Oh, ok, I remember that spirit now!” (The only album I’m able to discern in the liner photo of record shelves is Bill Dixon’s Collection, so props for that.)

The first three SYR EPs thrillingly built on one another, adding intrigue to anticipation. Which inexplicably resulted in…

A Thousand Leaves was, “Hey, you know what we haven’t tried yet? Sucking. Let’s suck! Like, not just being mediocre, but really cluelessly sucking!”

After that, I gave up.

the first time I went to the art institute of chicago and had serious brain-melting OH SHIT moment.

Ha, I had a similar moment there, around 2012-13 or so. I knew the cover was a Richter painting, but had no idea where it came from or ended up. And suddenly, 20+ years later, there it was!

Quite notm

thought A Thousand Leaves, NYC Ghosts & Flowers, Murray Street, Sonic Nurse, and Rather Ripped together were an incredible run

during that period, SYR 4: Goodbye 20th Century (1999) was too esoteric to be generally well-liked, but it was an homage to artists like Christian Wolff, John Cage, Takehisa Kosugi, Pauline Oliveros, Yoko Ono, and Steve Reich and was very interesting

I loathe SYR3, probably my least favorite release of theirs. SYR4 at least has the excellent Oliveros song and some other cool moments.

I blame Jim O'Rourke for SYR3

> serious brain-melting OH SHIT moment.

i remember walking into a gallery around Bond Street with tim of this parish around 2003 and seeing a load of Sonic Nurse (etc) paintings by Richard Prince.

Jim O'Rourke brought a lot to the table with Murray Street and Sonic Nurse

I guess, I can't really hear it aside from an overall increase in sound density but I like those records just fine

A Thousand Leaves was, “Hey, you know what we haven’t tried yet? Sucking. Let’s suck! Like, not just being mediocre, but really cluelessly sucking!”

I've possibly mentioned this before but A Thousand Leaves was the point where Sonic Youth went from being a band I like to being my favorite band.

yeah ATL is wonderful, as is "Silver Sessions: For Jason Knuth". I love late SY - saw them on the Sonic Nurse tour and I have never heard a band sound *so good* on stage, I felt like they were plugged into my brain. O'Rourke was a member then and I wondered if he may have had some influence on that.
Also Tarfumes, there's no digital on Goo, just 2 x 24 track analogue.

Yeah, I figured Goo wasn’t recorded digitally, given how much better it sounds than many of the all-digital recordings from around that time (the Kinks’ UK Jive and Rosanne Cash’s Interiors are two awful-sounding records that spring to mind). But Goo has a brighter sheen on it than Daydream Nation or (especially) Sister. I probably associate that with digital as it was the first SY record I bought/heard on CD.

SYR4 is top three SY for me. Great idea, very well executed.

xp The Replacements' Pleased To Meet Me (which I otherwise love) comes to mind too, but at least it feels kind of hilarious in that context, like the Mats of all people recording digitally when that sort of thing was usually done by Peter Gabriel or Paul McCartney circa 1986. It's also kind of funny when you get to those pauses on "I Don't Know." I saw at least one article from the time joking, "look ma! No hiss!"

As ever, a lot being said that I disagree with, but that’s life.

Goo is the SY album I’ve spent the least time with, not sure why. (See also The Whitey Album.)