Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

My problem with SY post-DN is that I never came to them for songs. Sure, Sister had some stuff that was "catchy" in a bent, rattling-itself-apart way, but it was always about the guitar tones and the unexpected noises and things just kind of dissolving. Almost every "experimental" band, if they last long enough, eventually decides that the next logical step is to write conventional rock/pop songs and keep just enough of the weirdness that used to be their whole thing lingering as an accent, or a gentle whiff on the breeze, to placate critics and longtime fans. It happened to Pere Ubu, it happened to Sonic Youth, it happened to Einstürzende Neubauten, probably many more too.

And I understand! People like songs! But the results are almost always much less interesting than what came before. Like, I'm sure there are people whose favorite Pere Ubu album is Cloudland...but those people are wrong.

Pere Ubu were never wholly “experimental,” though, right(?) Experimental weirdness was never their “whole thing”?

Even at their most commercial, though, Sonic Youth never made something as radio-focussed as "Waiting For Mary". There's a lot of abrasive guitar on the 90s records, even on the more structured songs.

while I understand and sympathize with DN skeptics and critics, I've always had a soft spot for it. But as someone who was "there", it was not well received by many of the band's fans at the time (otoh they got a ton of new ones)

I also have to say that the coda of "The Sprawl" is goddamn gorgeous.

I guess that’s my basic problem with SY: I don’t find their “experimental” stuff to be experimental enough, their “pretty” stuff to be pretty enough, their “songs” to be song-y enough… etc.

Even at their most commercial, though, Sonic Youth never made something as radio-focussed as "Waiting For Mary". There's a lot of abrasive guitar on the 90s records, even on the more structured songs.

I honestly don't see a major difference in songfulness vs sonic exploration between Sister/DN and Dirty, certainly not like VU with vs without Cale or even Gabriel/Hackett-era Genesis vs the Collins-led trio. They were always interested in doing songs and by Sister they were clearly doing tuneful rock anthems with the weird tunings, noisy breaks etc., none of which they abandoned in the Geffen era. (The SYR series probably contains the least song-based material they ever did, and that was from the late 90s and onwards.) I do rate Sister/DN a little higher than Goo/Dirty but more just because I find the songs more consistent. If anything, I can maybe see more of a break between the pre-Shelley material and the SST era.

I think it's basically the flipside of what Morris is saying.

Their best record is EVOL. Hands down.

This. The records to either side of it are great but it’s not close.

Maybe it's the shitty sound of the OG CD of EVOL I had as a teen but it's never been a faourite of mine - loved the terrifying noise and halloween vibes of Bad Moon and the prismatic pop of Sister much more.

My half-knowledgeable opinion is that "self obsessed and sexee" off of Jet Set is probably one of their best songs, in terms of "rock songs" ... there are a few other good tracks on that album (the album as a whole is ok), but that one is seriously fucking great. ... reminded of this because I saw Bikini Kill last night. ... Kim Gordon played the night before and her set was way better than I had expected. She did a DNA cover, which made me very happy.

The closing track off Jet Set, Sweet Shine, is astonishing, a lush, ballad-type thing with the late-summer vibe of Severed Lips off the first Dinosaur album and Kim singing from the POV of a misunderstood teenager trying to make sense of her relationship with her mother. It's a brilliant piece of music, her whoop in the chorus is this mysterious, joyful, cathartic thing.

The only acceptable 4th of July Weekend soundtrack. https://t.co/rFS8xytx64 pic.twitter.com/AT5lNtJHTd

— Tyler Wilcox (@tywilc) July 3, 2022

(who's got the Arkestra tape though???)

— Tyler Wilcox (@tywilc) July 3, 2022

Thought that would be for this:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41kagRr7SrL.jpg

will never tired of the sound they got out of EVOL

The cleanest break for me was between Bad Moon and EVOL; this wouldn’t be the case if the former was full of “Death Valley 69”s, but that album is pretty leftfield even for SY’s 80s rep; the guitar meandering and drift - at the expense of conventional rock and roll structure - is predominant in a way it wasn’t in any of their other ‘main’ albums before or after (even Confusion IMO)

EVOL to me is the ‘big bang’ where the most recognisable SY elements to date are formulated and codified - it wouldn’t have happened without Bad Moon, but EVOL is the jumping off point.

i.e. Steve Shelley, but yeah

that album is pretty leftfield even for SY’s 80s rep; the guitar meandering and drift -

The closing track off Jet Set, Sweet Shine, is astonishing, a lush, ballad-type thing with the late-summer vibe of Severed Lips off the first Dinosaur album and Kim singing from the POV of a misunderstood teenager trying to make sense of her relationship with her mother. It's a brilliant piece of music, her whoop in the chorus is this mysterious, joyful, cathartic thing.

― politics is about vibes and the vibes are off (stevie),

I'M CUMMIN HOOOOOOOOMMME

Experimental etc is one of those records that I forget is pretty great when I’m not listening to it

see also "Tokyo Eye", Screaming Skull", "Starfield Road", yeah a lot of good stuff but a weird mixed bag as a whole

When did Shelley say that??

I may have overegged that statement. But he wasn't happy with the sound on EVOL and didn't like the 'first take is best' looser approach on Washing Machine. The latter is from paraphrased quotes in Goodbye 20thC by David Browne, the former I can't recall - maybe the same book or Confusion Is Next?

If I recall correctly SY wanted to record Sister at Sear Sound, with all its vintage tube gear, to get a warmer sound than EVOL. Personally I think EVOL sounds great but I can see why some in the band were disappointed.

Which album, Bad Moon?

Yeah Bad Moon…sorry that wasn’t totally clear

I haven’t read any SY bio to know how much of the material in this period was approached with Shelley’s style in mind or whether he responded in turn to the direction they were taking anyway

I do prefer Shelley’s sound on EVOL to Sister…I get the approach to the latter but it’s too muddy for me; I thought the brighter, reverb-heavier sound of EVOL was more flattering purely as a studio artefact rather than something that was “warmer” or something closer to how they sounded live

while I understand and sympathize with DN skeptics and critics, I've always had a soft spot for it. But as someone who was "there", it was not well received by many of the band's fans at the time (otoh they got a ton of new ones)

I also have to say that the coda of "The Sprawl" is goddamn gorgeous.

― thinkmanship (sleeve), Monday, 4 July 2022 bookmarkflaglink

Their songcraft got really good during DN, that heightens the tension between the abstract stuff (though I'd argue it also enriches the noise), which might've put the older fans off. I found Goo and Dirty a slog in comparison, though they are solid.

I think Dirty in particular is the sound of them trying to figure out where what they do fits in this new commercial paradigm (Goo not so much as its pre-Nevermind and thus pre-the pressure that a band like this could actually get properly big). I think its peaks are majestic - Theresa's Soundworld, Wish Fulfillment, Chapel Hill, Drunken Butterfly - but I don't think it entirely works. The Big Rock Moves are strong and subversive, but the more leftfield stuff feels slightly adrift. I think that's why I love Jet Set so much - they selected to move back into the margins, to not make sense so much, to be wilful and left-handed and anti-anthemic. Wonderful stuff.

I've never been able to get into Daydream Nation, but I like pictures of candles.

controversial opinion: daydream nation's canonical status is totally deserved imho

guys, Daydream Nation rules

It's got
Kissability

it's so soft it makes me hard!

I have given up discussing stuff like "is DN great" but just noting that the slippery slope that ultimately led me to posting on this site was commenting on a Stylus piece that was about finally deciding not to give in to all the peer pressure suggesting that Daydream Nation was a great album and just admitting to oneself (the writer) that it was OK not to like it (which is cool, it is totally fine not to like it!). The reasons they didn't like it were many of the reasons I love it though hah hah. But yeah, Stylus shutting down brought me here all those years ago ...

I am glad that I still love Daydream Nation.

Cross The Breeze is a DN song that deserves more love. A great Kim vocal and the switch ups between the galloping post-hardcore bit and the super-heavy breakdown are thrilling.

Yeah, one of my favourites - intro is also beautiful

'Cross The Breeze is my favorite DN song

Daydream Nation was never a favorite for me, but it's probably the one I put on most often in the last couple of years.

I was seeing Sonic Youth up to Daydream Nation and possibly a bit later. THink my first night in Ireland was to see Sonic Youth in Belfast in 90. Think I didn't see them again until 98 but could be wrong.
But do remember Kilburn National gig in presumably 89.

Another band like the Pixies I never really "got." I did see them open for Pearl Jam in 2000, it was the wrong venue and the wrong crowd for them. I have had Kim's book in my queue forever, I probably should read it.

PEOPLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viF12Mu3-5w

just awesome

what/where is that from? never seen it!

I think it's from that Put Blood in the Music documentary. I remember seeing it about 30 years ago on PBS.

Off top of my head I seem to recall, SY was on an episode of that David Sanborn's 'Night Music' show or am I remembering that wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05ygl9-5dvA

Yep.

yeah that's from Put Blood in the Music

Put Blood In The Music was the South Bank Show shared with John Zorn wasn't it
Like 1/2 hour each.

Was just thinking it was the VU thing but think that was just a similar time period.
Think we had recently got a vcr before that period. So still have some things from then.

It was a documentary aired on pbs in 1989 with sections on Sonic Youth; John Zorn, Ambitious Lovers and Hugo Largo. Don’t know about it airing in the uk.

These are the details for the South Bank Show Put Blood in the Music.

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b7994c2f8

That’s an edit of the original.

the DN candle is a painting by gerhard richter