Post a controversial music opinion

kept on waiting for his relationship status to change

I love Stevie Wonder's 70s run of albums and disagree with most of the controps about him upthread, but the calcification of this opinion into conventional wisdom is starting to provoke the contrarian in me:

Let the debate begin! Has any recording artist in popular music ever matched or bested Stevie Wonder's 1972-1976 run?https://t.co/tXdqZ9fuFq

— Phil Harrell (@PhilHarrellNPR) March 2, 2022

Tbf, Abdurraqib's answers are mostly fine/interesting* in that piece, but the interviewer says deranged things like: "Music of My Mind was the first stand-out album from this period. He then went on a run not rivaled in almost any field of life and work that anyone has ever seen."

* though as much as I like her, picking Gal Costa out of the available options in Brazilian music is p bizarre, allowing that it would be easy to fumble this question in a live interview

Putting aside counter-examples, why does endorsing this idea appeal so much? I know we have a thread on this exact topic, but iirc it was more about identifying other impressive runs rather than enshrining Stevie's as truly unique.

i mean miles davis from i dunno 1955 through 1976 comes to mind

I was only sporadically aware of good music before meeting my wife. Like, I think I kinda admired some decent stuff (mostly by accident).

But engaging with my the musical taste of my friends, my bandmates, my wife, and my daughter has sharpened my own taste in a way I can't quite describe. It's not about agreement or overlap (for us). It's about having a baseline level of engagement with art. My beloved can hate the music I like (and vice versa) but just simply not caring about music, or not being interested in why music is good? That would make it hard to find common ground.

I feel that connoisseurship doesn't happen in a vacuum; it's unavoidably social. That is what draws people to ILM and Pitchfork and Rolling Stone or whatever.

You could just go have opinions in isolation. You could simply like what you like, dislike what you dislike; fine. But if you never bump into a different person's aesthetic - and engage with them where they are - you will have a tough time understanding how complicated and nuanced artistic taste can be.

No one here is an island. Most of us come here at least once a day to take sides, pick only five, defend the indefensible, vote in a poll, or whatever.

Why? Couldn't you just go have your opinions in private? No. We all want to bounce our opinions off of others, to agree or disagree, to discuss at length the awesomeness or suckiness of a song from 40 years ago that almost everyone else - including the original artists - has probably forgotten and moved on from.

Tl;dr: taste is a social construct and it's totally understandable if it plays a role in your relationships

the most foolish take is that having similar taste in music means compatibility in ANY other way -- it's a point of shared enthusiasm, and that is all imo.

i was that fool and speak from experience :)

I hate the majority of metalheads I meet

and that's always been the case, often my progressive politics aggravate most of them and their regressive dumb ones piss me off, once we get off of the topic of the music we like.

at least now they're less likely to try to fight me over it as I'm bigger than I was in my 20s (not that I would ever fight anybody - haven't been in one since high school).

I have an old friend who is female, Black, and a metalhead...and also a bodybuilder. She's had to lay some assholes flat before.

i mean miles davis from i dunno 1955 through 1976 comes to mind

That was the first thing that popped to mind.

I feel very lucky that my wife and I share at least a few go-to music choices we each love equally and wholeheartedly: reggae and the entire reggae family (ska, dub, rocksteady), Fleetwood Mac (and solo Bucky), Pet Shop Boys, a bunch of country (but esp. Dolly Parton and Emmylou Harris), Neil Finn etc., and some other stuff not immediately coming to mind. Metal is pretty much the only thing that will just outright make her turn the music off, but she's very tolerant of metal-adjacent stuff like Van Halen and Faith No More. She's far more into contemporary pop than I am, but as of late has taken to playing random '90s hip hop in all its uncensored glory (often to her surprise, since she's mostly familiar with the radio versions).

I like all the music my wife likes but she absolutely does NOT like all the stuff I do. Mostly the metal and what she refers to as "space jams" - which seems to mostly refer to electric Miles Davis, Can, dub reggae, free jazz, etc.

The 7 year old is really into music now, mostly very rockist stuff like Nirvana, Van Halen, the Misfits, and lots of metal - which bums my wife out when he makes her phone play Slayer or Metallica while he runs around when we're cleaning the kitchen. He does not like hip hop at all which we subject him to a lot, but he was into "Tootsie Roll" by the 69 Boyz on the radio the other day and described it as "really awful but also kind of good".

She's got much more of a penchant for a lot of yacht rock, and put on the Doobie's "Taking It To The Streets" during after dinner cleanup and the kid was like "this is the worst kind of music - like jazzy, but rock?". Then she played Steely Dan and he got even madder.

Lol

Lol same

he was into "Tootsie Roll" by the 69 Boyz on the radio the other day and described it as "really awful but also kind of good".

7-year-old otm

I think maybe I have to look harder for these godlike moments of SW

I think 'Living for the City' is a very clear example of the heaven/earth binary in Stevie Wonder's songs. Even though the riff feels more constructed than "pulled from the ether", it is groundless and sublime and has a spiritual radiance that exists in direct opposition to the inescapable gravitational pull of the verses. The effect of this is to force your resistance against one aspect or the other, so it's not hard to understand how an aversion to the miraculous could result.

* though as much as I like her, picking Gal Costa out of the available options in Brazilian music is p bizarre

I mean the *really obvious* counter example would be Milton Nascimento's 70-76 (at least equally) major run: roughly concurrent to SW, a crystal clear voice that radiates divinity, a genre-melding soup, a social consciousness, a sprawling double album with massive hit singles turned indelible pop standards, a universality etc.

Most of us come here at least once a day to take sides, pick only five, defend the indefensible, vote in a poll, or whatever.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me constantly question why I'm even on here, but that I've so far more or less tolerated for the occasional opportunity to witness art coming into contact with the external world, or whatever Duchamp said about the viewer completing an artwork. What I'm hoping to see when I log in here is the liminal space between the art and the viewer, that's the most exciting thing about art to me, in that intermediate space where it's truly alive. When someone else gives me that, or allows me to see it, it tells me a helluva lot more about them than a stupid fucking list. And it happens pretty rarely on here but when it does i don't really care which artwork it is, preferences are pretty arbitrary and very fluid anyhow. I could turn on a dime.

Abolish taste and conoisseurship, right away please.

controp, all music is bad and all people who like it or bad, we should rename this board I Hate Music

I mean the *really obvious* counter example would be Milton Nascimento's 70-76 (at least equally) major run: roughly concurrent to SW, a crystal clear voice that radiates divinity, a genre-melding soup, a social consciousness, a sprawling double album with massive hit singles turned indelible pop standards, a universality etc

or Caetano Veloso's late '60s-eary '70s run.

Deflatormouse, you don't consider what you said about Stevie Wonder to be an example of "taste and connoisseurship"? Do you think that's it's arbitrary that you find his music "groundless and sublime" with "a spiritual radiance"?

Wow Deflatormouse, I admire your posts (and your username), but if you are really that annoyed by the normal traffic here, the exits are clearly marked.

controp, all music is bad and all people who like it or bad, we should rename this board I Hate Music

― sorry Mario, but our princess is in another butthole (Neanderthal), Thursday, March 3, 2022 2:44 PM

Rebuttal: some of the people who like music post here and the people who post here aren't so bad.☺

Is there a rock equivalent to Stevie's classic run? Beatles? Led Zeppelin? Talk Talk?

(Threw Talk Talk in there because this is the controversial opinion thread, after all.)

I'd actually agree (or contend) that the Talk Talk/Hollis run is nearly flawless. Maybe five weak tracks over six albums, and then silence. The b-sides are mostly good too (never mind the remixes).
Five weakest tracks, maybe:

Have You Heard the News?
Strike Up the Band
Why Is It So Hard?
The Last Time
I Don't Believe in You

...and Deflatormouse, one way to get posters to talk about things you want them to, or the way you want them to, is to ask them questions. Someone who posts a list may have a lot more to say about it, maybe even at the level of discussion that you're seeking, that they just aren't going to produce out of thin air without prompting.

My suggestion of Talk Talk was somewhat in jest, but I definitely agree: among the greatest runs.

My "classic rock" pick would probably be the Kinks' late 60s studio album run. Whether or not you want to include Lola is kind of akin to whether or not you would consider Hotter Than July part of Stevie's classic run. The case can successfully be made in either direction.

*cough*

Al Green between 1971-1975.

Al Green's run would be a fine consideration as one of the greats. I probably listen to those records more often than Stevie's anyway.

preferences are pretty arbitrary and very fluid anyhow. I could turn on a dime.

Abolish taste and conoisseurship, right away please.

― The 25 Best Songs Ever Ranked In Order (Deflatormouse), Thursday, March 3, 2022 2:43 PM

(Hi. I don't have any strong opinion on this either way, so I'm going to make a sarcastic joke. I like your posts.)

We already have abolished taste — just look at what's on the charts!

(No I don't agree with the sentiment of this joke, but dammit, someone had to make it. Thanks for reading.)

I probably listen to those records more often than Stevie's anyway.

And meant to add that I'd rate him over Stevie because I just prefer the sound of those albums.

Al Green also does the definitive version of a Doors song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdHq6jzwStc

all music is bad and all people who like it or bad, we should rename this board I Hate Music

http://snowyowl.php5.truth.posiweb.net/hate/

She never responded to my marriage proposals, unfortunately.

if you are really that annoyed by the normal traffic here, the exits are clearly marked.

I wouldn't say it annoys me very much. More often, what we're calling the "normal traffic" doesn't interest me, or i just don't "get it".

Someone who posts a list may have a lot more to say about it

I've always assumed that, otherwise it wouldn't be frustrating.

one way to get posters to talk about things you want them to, or the way you want them to, is to ask them questions.

I think that's a good suggestion! I've occasionally tried to goad people on here into elaborating more in different ways, including asking questions, but I def haven't done it enough.

I appreciate and enjoy being challenged on ILM, even if the most substantial pushback I've gotten has been prompted by flippant, semi-serious remarks. One such remark I made about Tanya Tagaq in this very thread led to fgti posting an astonishingly beautiful performance that had me openly weeping in a coffee shop. Another led rushomancy to write a series of posts on Trout Mask Replica that showed me a deeper love than I'd ever been able to see in it. What a tremendous gift that was.

Deflatormouse, you don't consider what you said about Stevie Wonder to be an example of "taste and connoisseurship"?

See, now i have to think about it! Reading over what I wrote, I think it's equivocating where it comes to making a value judgement: 'well, it sort of succeeds, and sort of doesn't, i guess. i can tell you what it does to me.'

Part of what I failed to convey earlier re:YMP is that people seem to log in here for all kinds of reasons, and not all of them are plain to see, or my impressions of this usually turn out to be wrong.

I'm on ILM because I love music, even music that I don't want to listen to ever again is okay by me.

I'm on ILE because I'm a grumpy dickhead.

I'm on ILB because I love books enough that I hate many of them, and also I get off on people calling me a snob or a dilettante depending on the day.

*cough*

Al Green between 1971-1975.

*cough*

Al Green between 1971-1977.

She's got much more of a penchant for a lot of yacht rock, and put on the Doobie's "Taking It To The Streets" during after dinner cleanup and the kid was like "this is the worst kind of music - like jazzy, but rock?". Then she played Steely Dan and he got even madder.

7yo OTM

Individual bands here and there annoy me but 99% of prog/yacht rock/fusion remain nails on a chalkboard genre-wide.

*takes snort of coke* Well, that's your problem, isn't it.

this thread can do miracles
just you wait and see

It's dumb to say that lyrics have to be smart, but it's also dumb to say that there's no such thing as a dumb lyric.

otm

The inspiration for this apparently-not-so-controversial opinion was a paragraph in the Lesley Chow book You're History, which sets itself up as a defence of musical artists who "are not primarily word-based", focussing instead on their vocal styles and sonic texture.
She blames Robert Christgau for setting the rock-critical hierarchy of lyrics-over-music. In her examples, he dismisses some of the lyrics on Carole King's Tapestry, and says that Prince's "rare political lyrics were always poorly informed". What she's misreading is that Christgau's criticisms have to do with lyrical pretension or overreaching, not that King or Prince fail to meet some arbitrary level of literary complexity. It's one thing to say a song can be great due to its wordless vocal, it's another to say that means lyrics are irrelevant (and Chow would not say that; in fact, at least one of her chapters (on Taylor Swift) is almost entirely lyric analysis).

Probably my most unpopular / controversial opinion: Musicians who complain about streaming royalties are whiny little bitches who signed a contract and need to own up to their choices. Musicians with popular songs are getting huge checks from Spotify. Write a song millions want to play repeatedly or STFU about your streaming income. You aren’t losing money through streaming, it’s an income source you literally have to do nothing extra to see a return.

more a godawful opinion than a controversial one

"personal responsibility" amirite

hey I’m just to glad to see it going into the much more deserving hands of Spotify’s executives and shareholders idk maybe that’s too controversial

If only the family-owned local place had just made better pizza, maybe they wouldn't have been replaced by a Papa John's

major labels are big spotify shareholders, which is why they don’t mind low royalty rates

whoever bought Leonard Cohen’s complete catalogue made a terrible investment

My controversial streaming opinion is that I still by physical copies of music whenever possible, so I don't feel guilty about using streaming services as well

Talk Talk controps? New Grass is the main reason why Laughing Stock isn't quite as good as Spirit Of Eden

I mean I don't know if I even believe that lol

The mainest reason is that SOE is just the greatest