arguments made in this *article
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 19 January 2022 22:36 (two years ago) link
very much enjoying the roasting of Gioia here, keep it up plz
― bad milk blood robot (sleeve), Thursday, 20 January 2022 00:00 (two years ago) link
otoh that link Ned posted 7 months back is truly horrifying
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I know that there are plenty of outstanding young musicians out there. The problem isn’t that they don’t exist, but that the music industry has lost its ability to discover and nurture their talents.
Gioia makes it sound so simple. As if going back to old-school major record label practices would be enough, when the world has changed and people have plenty of other options then listening to the radio or to music at all now.
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 20 January 2022 02:50 (two years ago) link
He mentions the definition of "new" music in that article as being music released in the past 18 months. Surely one can quibble with the definition, but I think the important thing from a statistical point of view is to apply a definition consistently over time to identify the trend. So if people are purchasing less of music released in the past 18 months as a share of total music purchases, that indicates the trend. It's unlikely the trend would be different if one extended the definition of new to 24 or 36 months.
― o. nate, Thursday, 20 January 2022 03:58 (two years ago) link
the ratio of new music : old music by that definition is always going to go down, based on my understanding of linear time
― frogbs, Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:03 (two years ago) link
That's true. The amount of old music is always increasing. That's always been true though, and I think the phenomenon of declining interesting in new music is a more recent development.
― o. nate, Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:05 (two years ago) link
The solution is to obliterate all traces of any music recorded more than 50 years ago so there's more new music.
― Jaime Pressly and America (f. hazel), Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:09 (two years ago) link
I had blotted it from my memory but yeah.
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:34 (two years ago) link
well I don't wanna sound like a boomer or nothin' but maybe there's something to be said about how homogenous pop has become? there are like a dozen big stars and a bunch of modern singles have one of them guesting on another one's track. all the songs are written by 3 guys in Sweden. so everyone just sounds like everyone else. this isn't just me blasting modern pop music like every Dad does, I think this is actually the goal. the same thing the MCU did to movies a bunch of dudes named Björn did to pop music.
obviously people have been complaining about this my whole life but there just seemed to be so much more going on in other decades. I mean there still is but it's not really getting played on the radio or anything else mainstream. remember how all the weird shit from the 90s all kinda got lumped together? that's not really happening anymore. a band like Ween may still be popular among the youth thanks to Spotify playlists or the YouTube algorithm (or Spongebob?) but it's not really leading people to all the other stuff from that era.
― frogbs, Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:39 (two years ago) link
I question the implied premise that newly released music should be more popular than older music in a healthy music culture.xp
― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:47 (two years ago) link
xp that description doesn't sound particularly different to any time since 2000 or so and is also ignoring that rap charts about just as well as pop.
― ufo, Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:48 (two years ago) link
all the songs are written by 3 guys in SwedenThis may have had a large enough grain of truth 5-10 years ago to be an “I’ll allow it” level of exaggeration, but not really today…
― Rockin’, and rollin’, and whatnot (morrisp), Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:50 (two years ago) link
(Fwiw - I think Ariana, Billie, Olivia, Taylor, Doja, Dua, Gaga, Katy, etc. are all pretty distinctive and don’t sound much like each other)
― Rockin’, and rollin’, and whatnot (morrisp), Thursday, 20 January 2022 04:55 (two years ago) link
i think it's just as likely that very little about ppl's listening habits has changed, and instead what has changed is that we went from knowing when someone purchased an album once to having the knowledge of what everyone on earth is listening to all the time
legacy acts have been dominating the touring market for how long now? many years
― J0rdan S., Thursday, 20 January 2022 05:04 (two years ago) link
Yeah, for the first few singles
― frogbs, Thursday, 20 January 2022 05:07 (two years ago) link
that general sort of argument about the homogeneity of pop probably applies a fair bit more to something like the korean idol industry but even that's capable of putting out genuinely exciting & interesting work
― ufo, Thursday, 20 January 2022 05:21 (two years ago) link
songs routinely stay in the billboard charts for over a year, and tiktok has caused lots of songs to pop off over a year after their release. i honestly do think that the math would change if the “catalog” parameters were extended to 3 years instead of 18 months
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Thursday, 20 January 2022 05:26 (two years ago) link
anyway this article is bad and gioia should feel bad for writing it
Radio stations are contributing to the stagnation, putting fewer new songs into their rotation, or—judging by the offerings on my satellite radio lineup—completely ignoring new music in favor of old hits.
my stars! why isn’t “50s on 5” playing the latest cardi b???
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Thursday, 20 January 2022 05:28 (two years ago) link
does it spell doom for new music if people are still listening to something like "blinding lights," which came out in november 2019?― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Wednesday, January 19, 2022 11:11 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
Yes, this song is atrocious
― Nabozo, Thursday, 20 January 2022 07:21 (two years ago) link
Otherwise I don't think it's news that people listen to classics and it's actually cool to know the numbers. I was on the Rumours page yesterday on Spotify and the three main songs have between 600 and 900M listens, which I normally associate with pop and reggaeton. That those numbers are growing may just be a sign that Spotify is getting more and more democratic with our venerable parents.
― Nabozo, Thursday, 20 January 2022 07:26 (two years ago) link
This was a thought I had yesterday but wasn't sure how to put it. Physical sales figures are likely to have a bias towards newer releases since people only need to buy the White Album one time. If we looked at what people listened to on the radio in 1992, I've no trouble imagining you'd see a load of classic artists.
― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Thursday, 20 January 2022 14:33 (two years ago) link
a lot of my listening is new-to-me old music
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 20 January 2022 14:38 (two years ago) link
I mean, there would have been nothing shocking about a young cashier singing along to "Light My Fire", say. (Admittedly, a song from 1949 would be less likely.)xp
― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Thursday, 20 January 2022 14:44 (two years ago) link
in other news, i've heard that orchestras primarily play music that is older than 18 months. news at 11.
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Thursday, 20 January 2022 14:59 (two years ago) link
My son heard Bowie's "Starman" in the trailer for the Buzz Lightyear movie and has been playing it over and over on Spotify. Those plays get counted. If, instead, he were listening to it on my 20 some year old Ziggy Stardust CD they wouldn't be.
― Chappies banging dustbin lids together (President Keyes), Thursday, 20 January 2022 15:11 (two years ago) link
I feel like Gerry Rafferty's "Baker Street" has made inroads among The Kids; I hear the asshole teenagers who live downstairs listening to it a lot the last couple of weeks. Is it used in a notable TikTok video or something?
― but also fuck you (unperson), Thursday, 20 January 2022 16:12 (two years ago) link
it’s in an episode of rick & morty
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Thursday, 20 January 2022 16:58 (two years ago) link
the churn of hits at radio absolutely is slowing down, and had been substantially even before the pandemic set in
― dyl, Friday, 21 January 2022 02:25 (two years ago) link
yeah, i've been noticing this as well
― maura, Friday, 21 January 2022 17:42 (two years ago) link
probably a result of streaming though, right? soundscan revealed that hits had longer shelf lives than people realized, streaming made clear that soundscan was still selling short how often people keep listening to big hits
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Friday, 21 January 2022 17:51 (two years ago) link
It makes sense that if pop charts were based on reported sales + airplay in the old days, neither metric was accounting for continued listening from those who actually bought the record. And in both cases if the metric was being estimated by record store owners and music directors, sudden changes would probably be more noticeable and be exaggerated.
There was always that glimpse of continued listening in the charts when they'd rerelease some monster hit of the past, like Yesterday, and it would find its way back onto the charts.
― the plant based god (bendy), Friday, 21 January 2022 22:18 (two years ago) link
It was always very apparent with live shows, where lots of artists who haven't had a hit in years still pull in the punters.
― Siegbran, Friday, 21 January 2022 23:26 (two years ago) link
this is only part of the story imo. overall, the churn of current hits in the streaming ecosystem is and has been substantially faster than at radio during the years that they've coexisted. it's absolutely true that sustained streaming strength is requisite for a hit song to persist into the "blinding lights" tier of seemingly permanent omnipresence. consequently it's been common for casual chartwatchers to marvel at the extreme, absurd levels of longevity attained by such hits and say things like "wow, streaming really did ruin the charts." but if you actually look at the underlying numbers, the fact is that virtually always it is overwhelmingly airplay, not streaming, that is keeping these songs this high for this long. program directors are choosing to keep these songs around, and the reason they stick around so long is because they are also choosing to barely acknowledge, at best, the majority of current streaming hit titles.
top 40 radio, supposedly the center of what's new and fresh in american contemporary culture, lost track of the pulse in the middle of the last decade at the same time that they lost their grip on what had traditionally been the younger end of their audience. these listeners used to be key to breaking "edgier" and more novel-sounding hits before they would ultimately gain mass acceptance among the more passive, adult end of the top 40 listenership. it is these listeners that have been ceded to the streaming ecosystem, and top 40 is consequently left to play to an audience that is barely interested in the music it's supposed to be playing. stations that play the few songs that these listeners are familiar with 120 times a week tend to see more favorable ratings outcomes compared to what's achieved by the more adventurous ones. songs by established superstar artists can break in quick order, but everyone else needs to slowly climb playlists at smaller-market stations for 4-8 months before the machine decides whether it's ultimately going to work in power rotation nationwide.
there is a very narrow bridge indeed between this stagnant set of evergreens and the comparatively bustling and dynamic world of the streaming charts other than the social media apps, which have been helpful to the labels but also not as predictable and controllable as they'd like. songs blow up on there seemingly without explanation or effort, and plenty of songs with considerable, sometimes obvious, effort behind them go nowhere. songs that had already been pushed at radio for months, then retired, unexpectedly start blowing up again on the socials and then get revived to new heights at radio -- "levitating" was the first, and now the same is happening for that putrid "heat waves" song, and i strongly doubt it'll be the last one. new artists with aspirations for mass acceptance now routinely spend an entire year promoting their first breakthrough hit, even if it broke first on streaming.
when i speak of 'more favorable' ratings for the more limited top 40 stations, i do mean that in a relative sense, as in an absolute sense top 40 has been in continual decline for the past 10 years, with apparently no end in sight. this is not the first time that interest in 'top 40' has declined dramatically, but in the past this would be accompanied by gains at other currents-based formats, as in the '90s. today, top 40 is cratering, and all other currents-based music formats are either steady or also declining, just not as badly. there are actually tons of recent blog posts by media and market research professionals bemoaning the current state of current hits... but really the opening and closing sentences of the one i linked above pretty much say it all:
If one were to put the ‘bundle’ of radio formats that depend on new, hit music together, in the fashion of a mutual fund, it would have performed disastrously over the last decade. It is not an exaggeration to say that ‘contemporary music’ is in a crisis at American radio, and if this trend cannot be reversed, or at least halted, there may be vast implications....American music radio is rapidly becoming a Kingdom of Gold, where one mostly hears the hits of yesteryear, the songs that radio made into hits back when radio made the hits.
...
American music radio is rapidly becoming a Kingdom of Gold, where one mostly hears the hits of yesteryear, the songs that radio made into hits back when radio made the hits.
tl;dr: top 40 saw too many black/trap artists on the streaming charts in the mid '10s and decided that oh that can't be right, then lost all their younger listeners and are now left trying, and failing, to hold the attention of people who are slow to warm to current music and barely like much of it anyway. american musical pop culture has essentially bifurcated, and the narrow sliver of the overall universe of hits that really works in both spheres as they exist today can persist seemingly forever. the sort of oppressive longevity that "blinding lights" attained recently, to much fanfare from billboard, will be replicated many times in the coming years, and oops don't look now but laroi/bieber "stay" may be on track to be the next one
― dyl, Monday, 24 January 2022 03:58 (two years ago) link
always appreciate yr insights, great post
my only question is "when will the classic rock format die" cuz it can't come too soon for me
― bad milk blood robot (sleeve), Monday, 24 January 2022 07:57 (two years ago) link
top 40 is consequently left to play to an audience that is barely interested in the music it's supposed to be playing
this was always the case though, yes? I mean at least for the last 30 years or so?
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 24 January 2022 09:57 (two years ago) link
Yeah I agree - top 40 radio would've lost all their younger listeners whatever they did. Even if they played exactly what the kids want they're not listening. From what I can see it's all streaming - either the hits are made by blunt force marketing/payola (labels pay Spotify, Spotify pushes the song to passive listeners through "algorithmic suggestions", voila: high streaming numbers, which feeds into even more algorithmic streams), or hits emerge through viral social media driven trends (tiktok memes, gaming parody covers, curated playlists by influencers, instagram models with music careers on the side, etc). Either way, radio has no power over younger listeners.
― Siegbran, Monday, 24 January 2022 11:34 (two years ago) link
good points dyl
now imagine if the gioia article that inspired this revive bothered to reckon with this for more than half a second
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Monday, 24 January 2022 15:23 (two years ago) link
tl;dr: top 40 saw too many black/trap artists on the streaming charts in the mid '10s and decided that oh that can't be right, then lost all their younger listenersThe blog post you linked to also shows listening down at rhythmic contemporary (as well as way down at active rock etc.). What’s their excuse?
― Rockin’, and rollin’, and whatnot (morrisp), Monday, 24 January 2022 16:02 (two years ago) link
joint pain
― Chappies banging dustbin lids together (President Keyes), Monday, 24 January 2022 16:06 (two years ago) link
(to put it another way – listeners who want to hear hip-hop etc. have always had other formats & sources than CHR, I don’t get why the availability of streaming would cause an existential crisis for the format?)
― Rockin’, and rollin’, and whatnot (morrisp), Monday, 24 January 2022 16:08 (two years ago) link
Classic Rock is basically the new Oldies format, and presumably isn't going anywhere soon, instead just adapting in a way that's dropping '60s stuff off playlists in favor of Nirvana and Stone Temple Pilots etc.
― Precious, Grace, Hill & Beard LTD. (C. Grisso/McCain), Monday, 24 January 2022 16:08 (two years ago) link
at least on my local classic rock station that's been around since the 70s when it was an old school stoner dr. johnny fever type place, the 60s stuff is barely there anymore, there are some exceptions, like Hendrix, a few others but not many...Beatles don't get played at all (except "Come Together" which I think is because it scans more 70s to than 60s, but for example MUCH more likely to hear "Jane" by Jefferson Airplane than "White Rabbit" now
now it's more mid/late-70s to mid-80s as the center of gravity, as opposed to late 60s/early 70s, lot of the 80s stuff like Ozzy, GnR, Def Leppard are now part of the canon. And, as Grisso said, starting to hear stuff like Pearl Jam a lot now
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 24 January 2022 16:14 (two years ago) link
dyl's link seems to show big increase for Classic Rock in past decade
― Rockin’, and rollin’, and whatnot (morrisp), Monday, 24 January 2022 16:38 (two years ago) link
in a way i suppose at least for classic rock/oldies radio, there's always a path forward, there's always always new stuff that becomes old stuff
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 24 January 2022 16:40 (two years ago) link
The blog post you linked to also shows listening down at rhythmic contemporary (as well as way down at active rock etc.). What’s their excuse?
― Rockin’, and rollin’, and whatnot (morrisp), Monday, January 24, 2022 8:08 AM
this is an interesting question and i don't know that i have a good response to it. the rhythmic contemporary format has long pointed in the direction that pop music is headed in musically, as its programming tends to split the difference between the black and white mainstreams. this tends to be true even when the format itself is marginal the way it is now -- unlike in the '90s, when it was a huge success and was far more impactful in many markets than 'mainstream' chr.
today the rhythmic format, despite being programmed by few outlets, is ironically considered to be in a good place musically for the past several years, with a healthy turnover of many hits that work well for its audience (unsurprising, as it is well positioned to react to streaming stories). my city lost its rhythmic station in 2016, which was at the time splitting the difference between late-stage edm hits and mustard-wave r&b (w/ a corny 'party hits' branding). the rhythmic contemporary charts these days skew much closer to what's being played at hip-hop stations, and center-lane 'pop' product doesn't seem to make its way over as much.
i only hear these stations when i'm on vacation in much larger cities, often those with large latinx populations (some stations in the format do play quite a bit of urbano and other latin pop), so i suspect that these are the only markets where the format is thought to work nowadays. instead, in markets like mine you'll have your hip-hop stations and your pop stations (often owned by the same firm), but nothing on the air occupying the middle ground. i guess this reflects the extremely consolidated nature of the airwaves nowadays, + the sentiment that we've seen mentioned in other threads from some in the industry who feel that black music not crossing over is beneficial to black music (years later i would say it's evidently not helping black music radio very much!!)
― dyl, Monday, 24 January 2022 17:28 (two years ago) link
classic rock unfortunately will never go away until all its listeners do
american radio is dead and the american industry is losing its ability to actually bring new hits to mass acceptance. at least this probably means its stranglehold over the industry in other regions of the world will loosen substantially + these places will be able to better develop and promote their own talent
― dyl, Monday, 24 January 2022 17:32 (two years ago) link
the other part of the equation i haven't mentioned yet is the technological aspect, i.e. that younger folks have been quicker to adopt novel products that make listening to music through streaming as convenient as tuning into radio if not more
― dyl, Monday, 24 January 2022 17:36 (two years ago) link
maybe this is a dumb question but do classic rock tracks qualify for airplay ratings, and how do they compare with pop songs? i.e. as a whole, across the country, are core Top 40 songs played more than core classic rock songs?
― skip, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 05:06 (two years ago) link