Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

The sole track with O'Rourke on the new release (which has been released before as part of a box set as stated in the liner notes) is a slow, brooding and instrumental early version of "Pattern Recognition".

Liner notes by tylerw? TAKE MY MONEY
ha, brian turner (ex WFMU) actually wrote the liners, I wrote the "obi-essay" that comes with the LP. a tiny thing, but believe me, 15-year-old me is over the moon about it.

Either way, that's awesome! I might just have to get back into buying more vinyl just for your obi-strip essays! I did get the one that came with the Sunburned Hand of the Man vinyl.

they're kind of glorified hype stickers, but they are cool!

When I die will you write the obi obit for my posthumous best of

obi is a big nytimes crossword answer. japanese belt. It always bums me that I forget.

Am 100% hiring Tyler to write bumf first my next record. Only stipulation: must be scrupulously honest.

“Eh, this stuff is alright for a bunch of fiftyish hobbyists from the prairies. You could do worse. But you’ll probably forget it in a week, so why bother?”

i will write everyone's obis, just call me obi-wan.

Agree to that so quickly

Where was that in St. Louis? I saw them once, around the same time, in St. Louis, but can remember none of the details.

― Karl Malone, Thursday, December 23, 2021 4:37 PM (one month ago) bookmarkflaglink

Sorry, just saw this now. It was at the Pageant.

https://i.imgur.com/HLEUG5Q.png

https://i.imgur.com/xmH7Io8.png

https://i.imgur.com/qqfuGBS.png

In/Out/In showed up yesterday, only two tracks in so far but I <3 having "new" Sonic Youth in my life.

I don't think I've listened to "Rather Ripped" since it came out, for no particular reason other than I just don't put on Sonic Youth that much. But the thing that's striking me right now is just how good the songwriting is. Of course the band will always be best known for its sound, for the noise and whatnot, which (misleadingly) can make the songwriting seem an almost underrated afterthought. But it's just so tuneful and melodic, which is not where teenaged me in the late '80s and '90s ever would have imagined the band ending up.

But I think ever since the ‘80s people have underestimated how much Sonic Youth know about chord theory and how much they’re aware of alternate tunings and what effect they have

I honestly don't know how much the band knows about theory (alternate tunings, sure), but regardless, as countless acts have demonstrated, knowing chords and music theory and the like does not necessarily translate to good songwriting. More often than not it it results in music that mostly annoyingly calls attention to to all the chords and music theory.

RR is a big favorite and (imo) should’ve been their last studio LP - it would’ve been a great note to go out on. But, of course, The Eternal happened.

The Eternal's a good record too. But there's something brilliantly perverse about how their final record for Geffen was also perhaps their most 'pop' and accessible.

If you'd like to see the Sonic Youth albums ranked incorrectly...

https://www.avclub.com/every-sonic-youth-album-ranked-ranked-worst-to-best-1848612410

As a Goo aficionado, I'm okay with those rankings, actually.

I guess what I was saying was, people always - ALWAYS - since the beginning thought Sonic Youth were just making noise on their guitars, when in fact they knew very well what they were doing, It had a foundation in music theory (the old saw that you gotta know the rules to break the rules)

More often than not it it results in music that mostly annoyingly calls attention to to all the chords and music theory.

Strongly disagree, although I also don't know how much Thurston and Lee know about 'standard' music theory. It's definitely evident that they were methodical and skilled with the particular rows they furrowed and had obv worked with Branca before recording. David Heetderks has published analyses of Sonic Youth songs that do show there are some pretty sophisticated things going on, harmonically.

I think the Beackbeat soundtrack might be the one example i can think of TM playing fairly straight versions of non-Sonic Youth material (where he acquitted himself well enough).

Sonic Nurse, Rather Ripped, and The Eternal are a helluva way to bow out.

Strongly disagree

Oh, I wasn't talking about SY when I said "more often than not it it results in music that mostly annoyingly calls attention to to all the chords and music theory," I was talking about bands in general. There are definitely sophisticated things going on harmonically, but I think that's because they were methodical and skilled and also good songwriters, not because they were classically trained or whatever. Like, Page Hamilton is trained, iirc, but there's a reason you don't see people ranking Helmet albums. And he's nowhere near the top of the show-off heap, just working in a rock milieu like SY.

Yeah, I got you and we agree about SY. I just don't agree that music theory education is more likely than not to result in empty ostentation. It's just a tool that learners can use in any number of ways. Someone who uses it mainly to call attention to themselves was probably likely to do so with another tool in its absence.

Until this past summer, I let a lot of their work from the past 20 years (or more accurately their last ten years) pass me by. After catching Moore, Shelley and Gordon all perform in recent months, I finally dove into those albums and for the most part found them all enjoyable. They're not necessarily "perfect" and some are better than others, but I was surprised how consistently rewarding their main catalog turned out to be. The earliest stuff isn't quite there for me, but from Bad Moon Rising to the end, virtually every one had something substantial to offer (though NYC Ghosts & Flowers might be merely okay).

NYC Ghosts & Flowers is at worst blah, either the end of a manner or the beginning of a new one.

xp yeah that sounds about right, throw in SYR 1 and 2 and maybe half of 4 to boot

EVOL is way low to me in that list.

I think their tunings are often pretty clever, they play up sounds that are often kinda hard to play in standard like ninth chords or multi-octave drones in a way that you can thrash at them like Johnny Ramone.

There are some neat online covers showing people playing some of the tunes and you can see the fingerings are not crazy hard to hit.

I got a feeling Lee got as much of that stuff from Joni Mitchell (who does similar things) as Branca.

It occurred to me recently that over the last few years I've listened to Washing Machine more than any other album from 1995.

Washing Machine was good. In that list, thought EVOL, A Thousand Leaves, and Murray Street were too low, and Rather Ripped and Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star too high, but can't argue with Daydream Nation and Goo as the top two. They were one of the best rock bands of the last 30+ years

It had a foundation in music theory (the old saw that you gotta know the rules to break the rules)

― Josefa

Surely their foundation is more in art and literary theory than music theory. Especially art.

They do call a lot of attention to the proprietary characteristics of a guitar, it's physical or material properties, that whole Hans Hoffman thing of medium distinctions. I dont know that tunings are a primary mode of doing this, but sure- it's not a piano so why should the tuning be fixed?

A Thousand Leaves, and Murray Street were too low

a Thousand Leaves might be their best album!!

And why not retune a piano as well?

can't argue with Daydream Nation and Goo as the top two

lol I would 100% argue with this, but the point is that they made a lot of great records

I mentioned Joe Gore's interview and article on them from the Aug 91 Guitar Player earlier in the thread. Here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/18it36EojywZqYd1mbwjQIzAwYpG-ifOq/view?usp=sharing . It addresses most of what we've been talking about. They discuss their (or KG's and LR's) influence from the high-concept art world, as well as the sonic/acoustic ideas they took from Branca/Chatham, and their comparative lack of formal training or theory (though TM says LR was "very studied"). You also get Gore's transcriptions and breakdowns for a bunch of riffs, one of which he also approximates in standard tuning, where it's much harder to play. As earlnash notes, the tunings allow for these more complex harmonies to be played with extremely simple fingerings. The "Cross the Breeze" intro mostly consists of a melody line over a maj7 chord, producing a bunch of varied extensions (maj13, maj9, etc). I could try to upload a Heetderks article if anyone's interested.

And why not retune a piano as well?

Kyle Gann's Hyperchromatica = one of the best albums of the last few years. The Well-Tuned Piano also a nighttime favourite for me.

Wow. I always forget how well SY's and Thurston's interviews served me as a guide to NYC as a teenager in Manhattan. Appreciate the generosity of their constantly plugging experimental artists in the mainstream press.

Def prefer their records to their interviews as exposition of the conceptual/theoretical stuff. They're a lot more interesting when they talk about the mechanics of it- the screwdriver, the amp turned to 10 with no input signal. Their focus is on the tactile and material is exciting. They def "make guitar music" rather than "make music with guitars".

I love The Well Tuned Piano.

Would read Heetderks but it might be over my head.

can't argue with Daydream Nation and Goo as the top two

lol I would 100% argue with this, but the point is that they made a lot of great records

― thinkmanship (sleeve

The deluxe DN has some cool "guitar music" on the bonus tracks, like Tuff Boyz which is all pick scrapes and input jack noises iirc

but yeah i'm with you.

i mean Goo lol

Also wow @ playing Ratt through their amps between songs

I generally can't stand Thurston interviews, he always came off so pretentious but not necessarily that perceptive or smart. But it's been a while.

The thing about the SY tunings, if I understand correctly, many of them couldn't even be supported by an off the rack guitar, they just couldn't physically handle the tension. Anyway, alternate or weird tunings are cool for the aforementioned, getting new ideas or sounds with often simpler fingerings (see: Keith Richards, or that recent Big Thief video on tunings). Volume/feedback is just one more significant sonic x factor. A lot of alternate tunings are about letting open strings ring out or drone, which I imagine gets some really cool effects when you factor in feedback, as SY demonstrated.

I'm no expert in this stuff, but iirc Pavement uses some absolutely insane tunings, too - maybe call them "alternative-alternative tunings" - though of course not to the same or even similar ends as SY. Malkmus is such a smarty pants I wouldn't be surprised if he knew exactly what he was doing, as opposed to SY, who did it by instinct or feel. I don't know enough about folks like Branca, Chatham or Conrad to know if they used the same approach, or if they were classically trained and knew exactly what they were doing. In the end of course it doesn't matter, it's about the results. I did get to see Chatham live once and Conrad live once, and I honestly felt there was an element of BS to both of them, which again, doesn't matter if you're into it.

And why not retune a piano as well?

Lol because it's a huge pain in the ass!

NYC Ghosts & Flowers is at worst blah, either the end of a manner or the beginning of a new one.

Oh hells yes. V transitional, though maybe the transition began with the similarly hated EJST&NS. The title track of NYC G&F is brilliant, the best of Lee's beat pretentions - the noiseout towards the end, which feels like toxic smoke blacking out the sun, is majestic - and Free City Rhymes, Renegade Princess and Nevermind are all excellent.

Someday I’m gonna do a huge deep dive into Sonic Youth’s catalog, and if I’m feeling adventurous enough I’ll try all the unlistenable avant-garde SYR shit.

You fuckers are convincing me to do a deep dive into Sonic Youth’s back catalog and struggle through all that goddamn SYR shit. SIGH.

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, December 18, 2021 4:33 PM (two months ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol i’m repeating myself!

First two SYR EPs are really thrilling!

the "guitar music" aspect to sy was an important gateway for me to other people in that tradition who had/have a lot more range. as it is i value sy as a combiner of things, psychedelia, punk, microtonality, emotional rock, feminism, etc. i appreciate that they were always searching for and talking about interesting visual and musical artists with some relation to them. occurs to me they're kind of like golden era rolling stones in that respect.

the "guitar music" aspect to sy was an important gateway for me to other people in that tradition who had/have a lot more range.

This is kinda where I fall these days. What I like about SY isn't their songs, because I am not a song-oriented person. What I liked once upon a time was the way their multiple guitar lines intertwined in "weird" / "wrong" ways (relative to the RAWK I was listening to more of at the time); the first thing I ever heard by them was Sister, in 1987 or '88 — Daydream Nation wasn't out yet — and at the time it sounded like the strings were falling off. (The semi-half-assed, wavering way they sang contributed to the something's-not-quite-right-here effect.) I was fascinated back then. But now I can hear the same slipping-out-of-control effect in, say, Mary Halvorson's work, and I prefer it in that context.

Here is the Heetderks analytical article: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cfkMJ1Bhm8BHNFRRViFXYv6BkLLw27Td/view?usp=sharing