King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

The Mainz improv of The Savage into the Doctor Diamond (never recorded in the studio) is just the heaviest thing in the world. Wetton’s bass sounds absolutely enormous while Fripp and Cross duel over the top. It’s also incredible in surround.

Earthbound was remastered as much as possible, and expanded from 5 tracks to 12, this year. Still not amazing, but worth hearing for sure.

Those huge Red and Larks boxed sets containing (almost?) every known recording from each tour are bonkers. When they came out there were a few days I just put the shows on shuffle.

Don’t forget the Starless box as well

Starless box? Does that not have Fripp on it? (...I'll get my coat)

I have the Larks and Starless boxes. They are indeed enormous and overwhelming. As good as it is, I am slightly annoyed that the LTIA box didn’t have the only decent recording of that band as they hadn’t found the tape yet. And now I feel like I’ve had my fill of paying big bucks for that era so won’t be ponying up for it.

In other news, I’m def. finding myself a bit sad that this may be it. They have been a hugely important force in my life since I was 15, and it’s hard not to think the pandemic may have speeded the end of this particular band. But what a run, and I’m so glad I saw them on the last three tours when they came to Boston. Each show better than the last and surprising to boot. Now I just need to finally read Sid Smith’s book …

Enormous sadness that I didn’t go to the early September show in ny
But the delta wave rumblings… I just couldn’t quite do it. I’m trying not to be too hard on myself

On the plus side, a lot of the various current and former members (like Belew and Levin) have toured the KC stuff in various combos. I wouldn't be shocked if Jakko gets Fripp's permission to keep touring the music of Crimson.

Earthbound was remastered as much as possible, and expanded from 5 tracks to 12, this year. Still not amazing, but worth hearing for sure.

Thanks for the suggestions, I hadn't got around to listening to Ladies of the Road because I was expecting Earthbound revisited.
From the Wetton band I have heard The Night Watch live in Amsterdam in 1973, which might have been more of a revelation if it hadn't been cherry-picked for much of Starless and Bible Black.

I do find it funny that Fripp decided to reissue Earthbound despite spending decades talking about how much he hated it. Gotta respect the actual legacy of Crimson, I guess.

So I just finished Sid Smith’s revised In the Court of King Crimson – and I have to say: it was one of the best music biographies I’ve ever read (and candidly, they’re about all I read these days).

Yes, it’s a lot about the band – and if you are only a casual fan, it’s likely way more than you would ever want to know. But as a document of band dynamics—why some people play well together—and insight into the 70s British rock scene, it’s pretty incredible.

Smith is a legit great writer, which I’ve never quite noticed even as I’ve enjoyed his liner notes over the years. Also: structurally, I loved that Smith didn’t dwell on each record or have a ton of biographical wind-up, instead he sticks to the important stuff and puts a neat track-by-track overview at the end, which keeps things moving.

I’m sure I’ll have more thoughts but just a terrific biography on a band I’ve obsessed over for a very, very long time.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/king-crimson-documentary-trailer-robert-fripp-1293969/

It appears Ian McDonald has passed away:

The death of King Crimson co-founder, Ian McDonald, has been announced. His contribution to the original band was invaluable and profound. Our condolences to Ian's family. https://t.co/VUDoF1mB1C pic.twitter.com/pZR4V2g5pR

— KING CRIMSON (@DGMHQ) February 11, 2022

RIP

Here he is singing "Under the Sky" in the latter days of Giles, Giles and Fripp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZWL86EATY

He's gone just a week after we watched him apologize to Fripp in that trailer above. That band should have made at least another album or two before Fripp and Sinfield took charge.
I don't know why he never followed up the McDonald and Giles album from 1971, there could have been room for his more whimsical, light-hearted approach in progressive rock. By the time of the first Foreigner album, six years later, whatever he had to contribute was generic.

In the Sid Smith book, McDonald says he was just too young and immature to handle fame. Which is a shame because those opportunities don’t come around too often.

That said, one of the things I learned from the book was that McDonald’s guest appearance on Red and plans for him to rejoin the band on a subsequent tour was engineered not by Fripp but by Wetton. Which Fripp (perhaps correctly) interpreted as Wetton trying to “break” Crimson and was another nail in the coffin for that band in his eyes.

Meaning "break" the band commercially? Or "break" Fripp's control? I'd heard both Wetton and Bruford were eager for the band to sell better than they did.

Break them commercially. Smith writes that Wetton generally started getting much more assertive about that as the band went on – and talks about how he brought that same approach to UK, when he and Bruford formed it a few years later (with about the same degree of success). In that context, Asia—its breakthrough but also its super commercial material—makes a lot more sense. He’d been plugging away for 7 or 8 years.

McDonald tribute from Smith here:

When the fusion record has a trombone solo pic.twitter.com/7iSIe9Nirf

— Eli Anderson (@eliranderson) February 11, 2022

Ha! That is decidedly the wrong link. Corrected here: https://www.loudersound.com/news/ian-mcdonald-a-tribute

i wish robert would quit reposting those arguments over and over. FWIW I do think he reposted that because he agrees with Belew.

I think Robert agrees with Adrian, hence the repost.

I do as well. My sense is that Belew has never been fully resolved as to whether he is a solo artist or a Crimson guy. Some of that is him and his ego – some of it is him having come to realize he went in with a guy who is highly mercurial.

And now, Crimson is finished and he wasn’t even invited to be in the last iteration of the band. That’s rough.

I kind of like that about Belew. I mean, the guy was an integral part of some great music by David Bowie, Talking Heads, Frank Zappa and even Paul Simon on top of the incredible run with Crimson. His name came up the other day with regards to the Rock HOF - he's exactly the type of guy who should have been in by now for "Musical Excellence," a category that the HOF has been way too stingy about.

Ah wait, I misread that as Belew being mercurial.

Belew me away really

Tbh I think Belew has a pretty good reason to be irked by everything that’s happened with the band since 2014. How much is he going to factor in the documentary?

I agree. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest there would not have been a Crimson from 1981 to 1984 or 1994-2003 or whenever without Belew. Maybe the original plan of giving the band a different name would have been the right call after all? Anyway, I have no idea why the two fell out, since I thought they were friends. Maybe that was Belew's mistake? I also suspect Belew just didn't like playing KC songs written by other people, and maybe that lack of flexibility hurt his chances in the most recent/final lineup.

I’m not sure they’ve fallen out per se. They did during that last kerfuffle. But even then, Belew was talking about how he loved Fripp personally. Beyond what I imagine may have been a financial arrangement; I think part of what calmed Belew then was that Fripp kind of anointed him the 9th (or 10th) member in reserve, which gave him hope that he’d be back in at some point. Obviously that’s not the case anymore.

My sense is that Belew has never been fully resolved as to whether he is a solo artist or a Crimson guy.

In his book, Bruford identified this as a problem with the group.

...or with Belew in the group.

I like Belew a lot but I'll be perfectly frank: he was vitally important to the 80's incarnation (which I love) but I liked his input less and less after that. I think THRAK has great stuff on it but he's responsible for some of the worst things on the last two albums.

people who enjoyed Belew's tenure had many many years to enjoy it and see them live. People who didn't got a few years here without him. In all liklihood, Crimson as anyone knew it is now over for good. I'm sure there will be further offshoots in the future of different combinations of players (Belew, Mastoletto, Levin) that people will get to see and hear.

"Starless" from the final gig of the final tour, in Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laKt80x0E4k

And posted this morning, two minutes of isolated Bruford & Wetton from Asbury Park '74:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3nDJAru9_4

Listening to Pete Sinfield's Still. This is even more of a curio than the McDonald and Giles album, and it's no surprise he has never followed it up.
At first, I was put off by his singing, until I realized it's an unexpected bridge between the tweeness of Robin Gibb and the sarcasm of Howard Devoto (though not simultaneously). His attempts at country ("Will It Be You") and rock 'n' roll ("Wholefood Boogie") are attempts.
Still, I mean nonetheless, there are some very interesting dramatic ballad/production numbers here, this may be the best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YcxrelCdpw

Did any ILXors see the KC documentary that premiered at SxSW? The "turn that fucking camera off" teaser trailer and what little I've read have me interested. The only review I've seen so far was at National Review, of all places.

Title track on Still is kinda funny - Greg Lake guests and his vocals are (obviously) so much better than Sinfields

Always loved the tune “Under the Sky” though the GG&F version is way better

reviews for the doc have been great across the board (I didn't see it yet, hope it gets distribution soon). I was disappointed to read initially that it's only 90 minutes long, and doesn't include many (any?) full song performances, but it's not like this last version of the band isn't well represented in that way.

I was disappointed to read initially that it's only 90 minutes long, and doesn't include many (any?) full song performances

I am the opposite of disappointed to learn this.

Yes, documentaries don't need to fill the role of clip compilations or concert movies.

I was wondering last night why Sinfield and McDonald, whose partnership predated Crimson, didn't continue to write together afterwards. They obviously esteemed each others' work enough to revisit it on their solo records ("Under the Sky" and "Birdman").

both of them were kind of semi-retired by that time; I actually thought Sinfield left the business entirely after Love Beach but apparently he collaborated on a #1 single by a pop band called Bucks Fizz? crazy that anyone would tab him at all for that kind of music.

https://filmmakermagazine.com/113724-toby-amies-king-crimson/#.Yjnpvy-cbUI

Just found this -- whets my appetite even more after a quick read.

Still poking my head into the later years of King Crimson and I picked up a CD copy of The Compact King Crimson the other day when I saw a copy at a local shop. What a weird little compilation! 8 of the 12 tracks are from the early 80's trilogy of albums (with a full 5 from Discipline alone!) and the remaining four are all from the debut. Just weird that nothing released between those albums is represented at all.

That's a great interview. Based on that I really want to see the movie, but I also think I'm gonna wait for the Blu-Ray and dive into as many extras as possible.

Sinfield wrote the lyrics for Celine Dion's "Think Twice"! Probably made him more money than his entire prog career, even with a sizeable publishing cut no doubt going to her management.

I happened across a 1978 interview with Wetton and Bruford which contained some fairly scathing commentary on Fripp:

Do you think that some of the bands you've worked with in the past have had a more conceptual outlook than UK? I'm thinking of Yes, Genesis and Crimson. I would imagine that Robert Fripp's ideas of what he's going into the studio to record are close to what he comes out with at the end of an album session.

JW: Robert? No, no way.

BB: No, you see there again there is this big misconception about him.

JW: He didn't go in with the concept of In the Court of the Crimson King. That was between Ian McDonald and Pete Sinfield.

BB: That had more to do with Foreigner than Fripp in many ways, because of McDonald. There was this conception that Robert did everything, which I have to scotch for you. There was something about his manner on stage which gave him a sort of autocratic feeling and I spend my life saying that he didn't necessarily do that much. He certainly didn't say a lot.

It was also a time when the axeman ruled generally in groups.

JW: Yes, the guitar was at a peak. He certainly didn't go into the studio with a concept. That's right out of the window, forget it.

I mean that does seem fairly obvious if you actually listen to how radically their sound changed from one album to the next. Fripp was arguably the least important guy on In the Court! When Wetton and Bruford joined the sound revolves around them. From the 80s on Belew did pretty much all the actual songwriting. Not a dig on Fripp but the dude doesn’t strike me as someone who could pull off a solo record without getting a lot of help (Frippertronic stuff aside)

ha, well yes see Exposure for proof of that theory

Although, to be fair, what "concept" there is to Exposure seems to be Fripp's entirely.

Also, Fripp has never been the one insisting or even suggesting he’s the most important person in the band. Which, FWIW, neither Wetton nor Bruford accuse him of in that interview.