Amidst this deeper look at the Beasties, we should examine the possibilities of their “Together Forever” tourmates Run-D.M.C having what may be the first rap New Jersey with 1988’s Tougher Than Leather. I know, we agreed on triple-platinum albums with multiple Top 10 hits, a requirement that this album unfortunately does not meet.
However, when you look deeper at the qualifications, we, much like the first track on NJ, will realize that “right now the rules we made are meant for breaking”
A counter to the arguments against Tougher Than Leather:
1. Only 1x platinum, following an album (Raising Hell) that only went 3x platinum
Considering how little attention was paid to rap/hip-hop by the mainstream music establishment, and the lack of interest in seeing any real changes in said establishment, one has to believe that if we were not in the pre-SoundScan/Yo! MTV Raps-era, both of these albums would have been certified at around triple these figures.
2. Raising Hell, the Slippery When Wet in this scenario, spawned only 1 Top 10 hit (“Walk This Way”), 1 other Top 30 (“You Be Illin’”), and 1 other Top 60 (“It’s Tricky”).
While the chart listings might say otherwise, Raising Hell definitely met “the one everybody loves” status. To somehow chart 3 singles during an era when Top 40 radio was doing damn near everything it could to avoid playing any rap (anecdote != data, but when I lived in Lexington/Louisville/Cincinnati metro area in 1988, several radio stations openly advertised themselves as playing “absolutely NO rap!”), if you force a radio format to re-invent itself – even temporarily - this should be automatic Slippery status.
3. “Tougher Than Leather” did not follow the trad NJ phenomenon where the 1st single (“Run’s House”) seemed so much like an extension of the previous album to where it ends up being as big – if not more - of a hit as those singles. Is it not a Fairweather Johnson?
No. The radio landscape in ’88 for rap was still extremely unwelcoming, and the emerging pop-rap scene was getting most of the (still miniscule) airplay. Tougher Than Leather’s singles were less-poppy than Raising Hell’s (as were Paul’s Boutique’s vs License To Ill’s). Radio made a slight movement towards rap - just not their rap. Still, “Mary, Mary” hit 75 on the Billboard Hot 100, and the album hit #9, which was a massive deal in that era.
Fortunately, the case gets better:
1. Event: Unless I am missing a major ad campaign pushing Paid In Full or Crushin’, it appears that Tougher Than Leather was the first major event rap album in the MTV era – the “World Premiere Video”, the cardboard cutouts at the shopping-mall record stores, and most notably, the accompanying movie.
2. I also want to point out how similarly the careers of Bon Jovi and Run-D.M.C. parallel each other through their respective NJs:
a. Both groups had 2 albums before their commercial breakthrough, slowly building their fanbases with minor hits that remained in their live playlists up through their respective NJs
Bon Jovi:Bon Jovi (1984) – featuring their first video to get MTV airplay (“Runaway”)7800 Fahrenheit (1985)Slippery When Wet (their Slippery When Wet, of course, 1986)New Jersey (their - you're getting good at this - New Jersey, 1988)Obligatory Greatest Hits Album (1991)Keep the Faith (their Keep The Faith, 1992) Crush (2000) – their first album with a Max Martin appearanceBounce (2002) – their first album named after a commercial product
Run-D.M.C.:Run-D.M.C. (1984) – first video to get MTV airplay (“Rock Box”)King of Rock (1985)Raising Hell (their Slippery When Wet, 1986)Tougher Than Leather (their New Jersey, 1988)Back From Hell (their Keep The Faith, 1990)Obligatory Greatest Hits Album (1991)Crown Royal (2001) – their first album named after a commercial product, and with a Fred Durst appearance
3. The “feeling”: By the time both bands released their 3rd singles from their respective New Jerseys, you could sense the change in which artists were going to be dominating the center of their respective genres. MTV’s “Hard 30” and “Yo!” exposed fans of both groups to heavier and poppier alternatives, while radio added more artists from both genres to their playlists, leaving less space for later singles from TTL & NJ’s album cycles. You could feel the ground shifting - while they were still successful, there was a strong sense that their time in the cultural center was coming to an end. Since it was happening to both bands at the same time, that just adds to the wildness.
― Front-loaded albums are musical gerrymandering (Prefecture), Thursday, 8 July 2021 00:34 (three years ago) link
I mentioned the unkle album b/c it was criticized for assimilating everything that happened to be fashionable at that moment. xp
― Deflatormouse, Thursday, 8 July 2021 00:52 (three years ago) link
ahhh sorry gotcha
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 8 July 2021 01:30 (three years ago) link
Has anyone in this thread ever mentioned Vitalogy?
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 8 July 2021 02:10 (three years ago) link
I doubt anyone thought the album was hollow and augured a downturn.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 8 July 2021 02:11 (three years ago) link
Pearl Jam have no NJ
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 02:16 (three years ago) link
Maybe it's not a New Jersey by definition, but Riot Act sure is a fucking drag.
― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Thursday, 8 July 2021 03:51 (three years ago) link
Tougher Than Leather definitely feels like a New Jersey especially being caught up in the passage of an era
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 8 July 2021 04:02 (three years ago) link
Good run dmc post
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 8 July 2021 06:31 (three years ago) link
Bon Jovi: These Days (their These Days, kicks off w/a song called "Hey God")
Run-DMC: Down With The King (their These Days, all about God)
― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 8 July 2021 06:45 (three years ago) link
Good post, I'm buying it: Tougher Than Leather is a NJ. I'm also on board with Hello Nasty. Pearl Jam had a very different career arc where they had an absolute smash debut with almost overnight huge mainstream superstardom, and their whole subsequent career was a managed decline where they successfully cultivated their (slowly) diminishing/ageing flock of devoted fans.
― Siegbran, Thursday, 8 July 2021 10:18 (three years ago) link
Prefecture's argument for Tougher Than Leather is excellent. Hats off for putting all that together.
― Bobo Honk, real name, no gimmicks (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 8 July 2021 13:08 (three years ago) link
Rowdy! I thank you and the thread for giving me the vocabulary to explain this phenomenon.
― Front-loaded albums are musical gerrymandering (Prefecture), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:25 (three years ago) link
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:31 (three years ago) link
It didn't debut at #55, though: it debuted near the bottom of the Billboard 200 on the basis of vinyl sales, then catapulted to #1 the following week, still the biggest leap in history.
"Better Man" and "Corduroy" were on album rock radio for yeeaaaars.
I'd feel better about No Code, but, again, the band deliberately experimented and deliberately wanted their fan base shorn. Not quite the same as a Fore! or Spellbound offering exactly the same as their predecessors.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:35 (three years ago) link
uh correction:
It didn't debut at #1, though: it debuted at #55 on the basis of vinyl sales
"Better Man" is a concert favorite still, as is "Corduroy" and "Nothingman". lots of fans (me included) adore that album.
the 'hits' weren't as big, but the main difference is that Pearl Jam sort of intentionally sought to go a less commercial direction after Ten, so the hits were always going to be smaller in stature. Vs kind of hedged its bets in that regard, but Vitalogy definitely moved them further into less commercial territory.
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:35 (three years ago) link
I don’t know, as a college student at the time at a midwestern school (so absolutely the target audience) it was an undeniable event upon release, but ultimately had fewer hits/memorable songs than VS. and it had “Bugs”, which may be you all’s fave track but, again, not in the overwhelmingly white midwestern college milieu I was in. Although looking at the charts I see No code debuted at #1 and the fell off very quickly.
I mean, I was also a college sophomore at the time in a midwest state school and even though people clowned on "Bugs" and "Stupid Mop", I can assure you that none of my PJ worshipping friends found that album hollow. It was inescapable and I would argue that it spawned more "classic" PJ anthems than even Vs.
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:38 (three years ago) link
OTM. Their best album imo.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:39 (three years ago) link
For the Biggest Rock Band in the World to release "Bugs" on a hotly anticipated album is some Bowie-level shit.
I can't remember if it was the week before or after the release of Vitalogy, but some enterprising pranksters chalked all over campus that PJ was playing at our basketball arena and that tickets would be on sale at 10:00 a.m. that Friday. I think the official count given was around 450 people in line before someone from the ticketing office finally got hipped to what happened and came out to disappoint the throngs. Miss those pre-internet gags sometimes.
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:44 (three years ago) link
haha college kids always used to do shit like that.
the one at my school was "we are paying people $50 to do a in-person study with one of our psychologists" and direct us to the middle of the student union where obviously nobody would show up other than the people who pranked us to laugh at us.
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 14:55 (three years ago) link
Vitalogy is way too singular to be a New Jersey.
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:02 (three years ago) link
Ok if “hollowness” is meant to be more a creative bankruptcy rather than “a feeling on the part of the listener that the hitmaking days are over“ (which is more how I had it) then I will readily admit Vitalogy is not a New Jersey.
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:04 (three years ago) link
"we are paying people $50 to do a in-person study with one of our psychologists"I hope it was “Sexual Dysfunction Study” or something like that!
― r u rolling pop 2021 (morrisp), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:07 (three years ago) link
I mean Pearl Jam stayed in pretty regular rotation on rock radio through Yield though, "Given to Fly" and "Wishlist" were all over the place. after that point is where even that started to dry up. and from Merkin Ball, "I Got Id" was a HUGE song on rock radio.
it's hard to argue a New Jersey when the band itself is intentionally trying to make themselves less accessible, which Bon Jovi was decidedly not trying to do.
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:08 (three years ago) link
I feel like maybe if Pearl Jam's trajectory was Vitalogy-Vs-Ten-No Code, then maybe you'd have an argument for No Code.
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:09 (three years ago) link
or _Spellbound_ offering _exactly_ the same as their predecessors.
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:10 (three years ago) link
hmm apparently I had a somewhat diff opinion in 2019:
Didn't Pearl Jam kind of intentionally seek a lower profile after VS by writing less commercial music? And attacking Ticketmaster so they couldn't tour and not building on momentum?
It's a NJ in that the mainstream definitely recoiled a bit from Vitalogy. people loved "Better Man", but despite being nominated for a Grammy, I didn't know anybody who gaf about "Spin the Black Circle" or "Tremor Christ" more than a month after release. Or anybody who is a mega PJ fan who cares about them now.
Buuut critics and the devoted PJ fans were definitely warmer to Vitalogy. Lots of setlist staples from that one. Some say it's their fav!
I guess it fits though, as far as hype goes, it definitely felt like the last PJ album mainstream rock fans anticipated, and you could feel the "who cares" vibe when MTV was trying to help promote No Code.
― master of nuggets (Neanderthal), Tuesday, December 10, 2019 7:00 PM bookmarkflaglink
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:10 (three years ago) link
I'm not going to argue with your personal response to the record, but "a feeling on the part of the listener that the hitmaking days are over" is so far removed from my experience with that record and how others I knew at the time responded. Between "Better Man", "Corduroy", "Immortality", "Not For You", "Spin the Black Circle" and "Nothingman" getting massive amounts of airplay on alt-rock radio, it really felt like a band at their peak, who could do no wrong. It was still true the following summer when I saw them at Soldier Field and Chicago was lousy with Q101 "Not For You" billboards.
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:11 (three years ago) link
he Paula Abdul album?― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland)
pree-cise-ly
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:12 (three years ago) link
Spin the Black Circle actually *won* a Grammy
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:13 (three years ago) link
"I don't know what this means. I don't think it means anything."
I forgot about "Immortality", yeah, that one was big on modern rock radio at the time. my friend, who like me was just learning guitar, kept playing it when I'd play alongside him.
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:14 (three years ago) link
lol I forgot about "Black Circle" winning the Grammy... of all the songs on that album too...
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 8 July 2021 15:19 (three years ago) link
I'm also on board with Hello Nasty.
How???
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Friday, 9 July 2021 08:10 (three years ago) link
Don't you tell him to stop!
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Friday, 9 July 2021 11:22 (three years ago) link
Hindsight is 20/20 and, in retrospect, Bang! Pow! Boom! was the Insane Clown Posse's very own New Jersey.
― pomenitul, Friday, 9 July 2021 11:27 (three years ago) link
surprised Insane Clown Posse has never been mentioned in this thread tbh
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Friday, 9 July 2021 14:15 (three years ago) link
I hear their fans are called "Juggalos"
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Friday, 9 July 2021 14:20 (three years ago) link
Every huge artist has "Juggalos"
― Halfway there but for you, Friday, 9 July 2021 14:26 (three years ago) link
a fanbase that is its own subculture but ultimately feels a bit hollow? i think i can see it
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Friday, 9 July 2021 14:30 (three years ago) link
not hollow - filled with faygo
― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Friday, 9 July 2021 14:30 (three years ago) link
For real, they were a beloved underground unit, one of the horrorcore scene's best kept secrets, and when 'Miracles' dropped, a lot of people hailed their open embrace of pop rap as a quantum leap forward, but thinking back on it now, I think it's pretty obvious that the ensuing memes were a harbinger of the decline.
― pomenitul, Friday, 9 July 2021 14:35 (three years ago) link
fucking New Jerseys, how do they work
― not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Friday, 9 July 2021 14:40 (three years ago) link
Cat person? Is that a New Jersey?
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Friday, 9 July 2021 15:10 (three years ago) link
I think there's a case to be made for Carrie Underwood's Carnival Ride as a New Jersey. It's hard to imagine, but her debut Some Hearts was the biggest selling album of 2006 in the U.S.--ten million copies sold worldwide and 8x Platinum in the Death-of-the-CD era. And it wasn't due just to American Idol visibility but the megahit "Before He Cheats." She seemed poised not to just be a country star but a crossover pop star.
So in 2008 there was a lot of industry anticipation for her follow-up. And it did...just fine. #1 debut. 4 million sold. A few #1 country hits that made a showing on the pop charts. But it was pretty a standard 2008 Nashville album aimed at country radio and felt pretty much like a retread of the debut, just not quite as good. A lot of pop fans peeled off and each of her successive albums sold about a million less than the last.
Only one of the singles is even in her Spotify top ten (All American Girl, #6) "Last Name" was a bad attempt to duplicate the badass vibe of "Before He Cheats."
But as a career move it was probably a success, as it cemented her as a country performer, not someone who would go pop (like Taylor) and she's still one of the biggest stars in the genre.
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Friday, 9 July 2021 15:59 (three years ago) link
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryanrolli/2021/09/07/drakes-certified-lover-boy-smashes-spotify-records-as-it-heads-for-biggest-debut-of-2021/?sh=4733b23f508f
After listening to it a few times he may finally have reached his New Jersey !
― AlXTC from Paris, Thursday, 9 September 2021 12:08 (three years ago) link
Was going to say, I think I've incorrectly called the new Drake a New Jersey like 3 times in this thread, but if this isn't one then he's never going to have one
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 9 September 2021 12:58 (three years ago) link
you know what, I finally thought of one - Emotional by Falco. at least in Germany it was. the album hit #1, the singles all did alright, but everything about it was way over the top and strange and his next album sold like...a tenth as many copies
― frogbs, Wednesday, 13 October 2021 03:26 (two years ago) link