Taking Sides: Genesis 1970-1977 Vs. Genesis 1978-91

I interviewed Martin Levac a number of years ago, and he mentioned the time that Phil Collins guested live on drums for The Musical Box:

“He was very nervous – but we had a chat together, drummer to drummer, and it was cool. He told me that his chops as a drummer were at their peak in 1977 with Brand X – but since then, he’s been concentrating on writing songs, and playing back beats, and that’s what he enjoys doing now. He told me that back then, he had to prove himself as a good drummer. He would listen to jazz and fusion stuff – but after that, he became a pop fan, listening to Motown and so on. He ended the conversation by saying: well Martin, I’m gonna try and make you proud of me tonight. I said: you’re making me proud by just being here today! He was very kind.”

Elsewhere in the interview, Levac made the point that TMB learn their live parts exactly from the original recordings, whereas "Genesis changed things as they went along – especially Phil Collins, who was a very jamming drummer. He had a very jazzy approach, so he used to change his parts all the time. He never played the same song twice the same way.”

This gives context for Collins's guest-spot nerves - as basically, Levac knew his drum parts better than Collins could ever have recalled.

I got to see the Musical Box do "Lamb" with the original projections and (some of the) original costumes, and it was awesome.

I don't think this kind of thing would work as well for other rock bands, but ironically what was the main element of criticism at the time makes it possible. I see that internally some band members were wondering if the theatrical elements were pulling too much attention away from the music, but because there's so much of it (and it's all been well-preserved), this is more like a stage revival rather than a typical tribute show (and sure enough, they apparently had to register as one).

I can see that. I mean, when your lead singer is encased in what is essentially a giant, tumorous scrotum costume for a bunch of the set, then yeah, the music can seem secondary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXaG0OdtRAU

There's a reason why the tool from Tool might be wearing a dumb costume but still often hides in the shadows in the back. No one is there for his dumb costumes.

The Lamb and Selling England are the ones I typically put on most but I've been going back to my Nursery Cryme LP a lot recently, the first I ever got, and I think it's a contender for their best. Every track is good, it flows so well, and "The Musical Box" might be their best song.

George Harrison's notorious ex-manager Denis O'Brien just died. His role in Harrison's film work is far from flattering, but I didn't realize he forced "In Too Deep" on to Neil Jordan's Mona Lisa over his vehement objections.

(which to be clear, was a horrible choice that slowed the movie to a crawl)

Was listening to "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" while I was getting dinner ready. My younger teen walked into the kitchen for a snack, affects a voice and says "ooh, Phil Collins ...", then walks away again. I was impressed! She's got great ears, so possibly was reacting maybe to Peter's voice but I kinda suspect was actually reacting to the sound of the drums!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l3-iufiywU

i listened to the pre then there was three material and i could not find much i heard before or liked except pigeons was ok!

I just saw this photo of Collins on the current (presumably final) tour. Ugh, it's painful to see him looking so frail. At the last show, he apparently remained seated for the whole time.

Yeah, I just couldn't do it. I can't believe they released a live album documenting this tour.

Is there a live album? There's a new comp called The Last Domino.

My bad, I thought that was the new live album. The track list is (I think by design) really similar to the current set list!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ4XfbpS_bc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbIUB-hs6rQ

I thought their work was usually split in three: like 1970(or 1967)-1975, 1976-1982 and 1983 on?

How dare you ignore the Ray Wilson era?

One album does not an era make

How about the Ray Wilson anomaly?

^ worst Ludlum novel EVER

To me 1983 makes more sense as the cutoff of phase 2. S/T has more in common with Abacab than it does with invisible touch

1983 on wouldn't be much of a phase though really.

pre-1997 was their 'Laughing Gnome' phase

There's a 5CD box, BBC Broadcasts, coming out from Rhino this Friday. Looks pretty great:

Tracklisting
All tracks previously officially unreleased except where indicated.

5CD Set

CD1
01 Shepherd - Night Ride 1970 (previously released on ‘Genesis Archive 1967–75’)
02 Pacidy - Night Ride 1970 (previously released on ‘Genesis Archive 1967–75’)
03 Let Us Now Make Love - Night Ride 1970 (previously released on ‘Genesis Archive 1967–75’)
04 Fountain Of Salmacis - Paris 1972
05 Musical Box - Paris 1972
06 Stagnation - Sounds Of ‘70 1971 (previously released on ‘Genesis Archive 1967–75’)
07 Harlequin - Peel Jan 1972
08 Get Em Out By Friday - Peel sept 1972
09 Harold The Barrel - Peel sept 1972
10 Twilight Alehouse - Peel sept 1972
11 Watcher of the Skies - In Concert 1975

CD2
01 Squonk - Knebworth 1978
02 Burning Rope - Knebworth 1978
03 Dance On A Volcano - Knebworth 1978
04 Drum Duet - Knebworth 1978
05 Los Endos - Knebworth 1978
06 Deep In The Motherlode - Lyceum 1980
07 Dancing With The Moonlit Knight - Lyceum 1980
08 Carpet Crawlers - Lyceum 1980
09 One For The Vine - Lyceum 1980
10 Behind The Lines - Lyceum 1980
11 Duchess - Lyceum 1980
12 Guide Vocal - Lyceum 1980
13 Turn it On Again - Lyceum 1980
14 Dukes Travels - Lyceum 1980
15 Dukes End - Lyceum 1980

CD 3
01 Say It’s Alright Joe - Lyceum 1980
02 The Lady Lies - Lyceum 1980
03 Ripples - Lyceum 1980
04 In The Cage - Lyceum 1980
05 The Raven - Lyceum 1980
06 Afterglow - Lyceum 1980
07 Follow You, Follow Me - Lyceum 1980
08 I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe) - Lyceum 1980
09 The Knife - Lyceum 1980
10 Mama - Wembley 1987 (previously released on ‘Genesis Live 1973-2007)
11 Domino - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)

CD 4
01 That’s All - Wembley 1987(previously released on ‘Genesis Live 1973-2007)
02 The Brazilian - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)
03 Throwing It All Away - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)
04 Home By The Sea - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)
05 Second Home By The Sea - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)
06 Invisible Touch - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)
07 Drum Duet - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)
08 Los Endos - Wembley 1987 (previously released on DVD only ‘Live At Wembley Stadium’)
09 Not About Us - NEC 1998
10 Dividing Line - NEC 1998

CD5
01 No Son of Mine - Knebworth 1992
02 Driving The Last Spike - Knebworth 1992
03 Old Medley - Knebworth 1992
04 Fading Lights - Knebworth 1992
05 Hold On My Heart - Knebworth 1992
06 I Can’t Dance - Knebworth 1992

Good stuff here:
https://www.vulture.com/2023/03/interview-tony-banks-genesis-phil-collins.html

a sterner editor wd have nipped off the opening and the first (very bad) paragraph

then they would have asked Banks "why does everybody hate you?"

tbf i think the exchange re graham norton kinda (ie in a kindlier way) gets at that :)

either way the paragraph that starts "with genesis ending" is the proper opening paragraph, get it together vulture subs

That interview's a really nice read though, thanks for posting.

"Genesis ending" has poetic resonance because genesis literally means beginning, do you SEE

If they covered Cole Porter's "Begin the Beguine" it would be yet more poignant.

Trenchant, even

it's nice to see banks' thoughts on a lot of these tracks, particularly things like Stagnation which he obviously liked enough to keep in various 'old medleys' for many many years.

Nice read!

"It’s not like we’re Dave Brubeck trying to do funny time signatures for the sake of it"

lol come on dude

The mention of a new 53-track collection of previously unreleased material had me salivating but in fact this is just the BBC Broadcasts with 11 tracks taken from BBC sessions and a bunch of live stuff which has already been bootlegged. Nothing to see here, move along.

that was a good read - totally agreed on "Duchess" being underrated, it's one of my very favorite Genesis tunes

Banks is definitely right that he's not really given enough credit, the more I go through their work the more I see him as the primary driver of things in the band. there's a reason why Peter and Phil's solo stuff doesn't sound like Genesis (outside of the period where Phil's solo career overlapped). don't agree with him on "After the Ordeal", I love that bit, but I think the truth is Steve was just on a different wavelength than Banks and he just lost the power struggle. I've actually been getting into The Geese and the Ghost by Anthony Phillips and you can definitely tell this was the sound Banks was trying to steer Genesis away from.

I'm sure I've said it before on this thread but Banks's solo début A Curious Feeling is often slept on, it's a gem and contains some of his best ever songwriting. Vocal chores were handled by the late Kim Beacon who was a beautifully expressive singer.

Banks and Rutherford both did solo albums in 1979 because Genesis were on hiatus at the time and they put a lot of the proggier material they had been writing on those. So when it came to writing Duke they were short of material which is one of the reasons Duke turned out as poppy and Phil-heavy as it did.

this reminds me apparently Hackett's solo records within the last 10 years have been pretty good, I might wanna check some of them out

xp Geese & the Ghost is a frustrating listen. I love the guitar interplay, that moody tapestry effect, but it just doesn't go anywhere — you can hear places where Tony or Steve would have added some drama, but the songs all sound unfinished.

yeah it's kind of an "ambient folk" record, if such a thing could exist. if the pieces did go anywhere it would be a very different record. I like to listen to that and The Snow Goose by Camel back to back...both of them are largely instrumental and feel a bit aimless but feature a lot of really great sections. mostly I just like to hear all my goose-themed records at once.

Banks is lucky Duchess got as high up the charts as it did, it's just not hooky enough to be a hit single

Banks and Rutherford both did solo albums in 1979 because Genesis were on hiatus at the time and they put a lot of the proggier material they had been writing on those. So when it came to writing Duke they were short of material which is one of the reasons Duke turned out as poppy and Phil-heavy as it did.

― lord of the rongs (anagram), Thursday, March 23, 2023 11:12 AM (six hours ago)

This makes a lot more sense than what I originally imagined.

A while back, I asked a few friends with a greater Genesis pedigree than me if they could pinpoint what happened in the early-'80s to lead the band to embrace pop songwriting forms. Neither mentioned these solo albums as a reason (nor did they go with my idea that the Steve Howe-esque guitar leads at the 1:03 mark of "Behind The Lines" made them go "Soon, there will be a supergroup called Asia who will sell millions - let's retroactively beat them to the punch!"). One of the Genesis superfans told me "Notice how they equally split their songwriting credits - Phil's ideas start sounding a whole lot better after you begin to imagine the huge payouts that will result with a few hit singles." Or, I guess their accountants can say, it's written in the book.

"this reminds me apparently Hackett's solo records within the last 10 years have been pretty good"

they are alright, but they are very samey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJNHnecsoYs

Cool, I look forward to that.

Some days Phil Collins is my favorite drummer.

classic post btw:

There are many moments in the boxed set docs where Banks says something like, "I was proud of the music I'd written, and Gabriel's vocals messed it up" for things like "Supper's Ready." The Eno bio also mentions Banks being jealous or just generally dickish about Eno's involvement with Lamb.
Sounds like if Banks had always had his way, Genesis records would be little more than bland psuedo-baroque keyboard solos.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:54 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Phil Collins was a pretty good drummer in his prime. But I maintain that his greatest contribution to the drumming world is introducing Chester Muthaflippin Thompson to a wider audience.

I mean. Seriously. This guy. Impeccable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhwjcg6TeO0

I mean... just... the way he extends fills past the bar line and puts the china in there as an accent and and and. It's not weird or unexpected or even all that technically difficult, it's just always, unutterably, perfect. Tasteful. He does exactly what is needed, neither more nor less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4NNxekrZ0s

Chester is fine, but there's not much of him pre-Phil, is there? A bit of Zappa and Weather Report and that's it. A friend of mine told me a while back he was in Nashville, trying to break into session work, but no one was biting.

Somewhere in my childhood home there's an autographed Chester Thompson promo poster he signed at a drum clinic I saw. I'll actually be back home in a couple of weeks, I should try and find it!

Precisely my point. Chester wasn't on anyone's radar screen as a Drum God until he became the fill-in Phil.

And their partnership was a weird kind of magic. The way Chester plays lines that Phil originated seems effortless, but is actually pretty creative. He's channeling and interpreting at the same time.

Obviously I respect them both. But Chester's task was, in a way, harder. Phil could always just be Phil. He was never challenged or criticised; he was always regarded as the best drummer in any room he entered.

Chester had to play what Phil intended, while also being himself. I find this kinda fascinating.