Too bad they didn't put Coleman in while he was still alive (died 2015). I don't know if Sonny Rollins is in, but if not, he should be a priority. One thing that's become an issue with the baseball HOF is when they induct someone literally months after they die--happened with Ron Santo, and it may happen soon with Dick Allen. As you wrote above, no matter how much we carp and nitpick about this thing--and no matter how much half the people in there might ridicule it--I think it really does mean a lot to some of the early performers, particularly, as an example, artists like the Shirelles, who got cheated out money, who were ignored for decades as "serious artists," and then at least got this one honor. (And actually I don't know if all the Shirelles were alive when they were inducted, if any.)
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 21:59 (three years ago) link
Re: the Shirelles, three of the four members were actually there - Addie "Micki" Harris had already passed away but her husband accepted on her behalf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHP-2CSXqPA
A lot of the induction and acceptance speeches are officially online. The famously bad ones may not be, but you can find the good ones, like the Beatles (George is very eloquent in his acceptance) and the Stones (Townshend inducts them and roasts them). Trent Reznor slagged the HOF for a long time, but obviously he changed his mind and you can see how disappointed he is with his Zoom acceptance due to the pandemic - as he mentions, he was hoping to reunite all past and present members on stage and just "have a moment." (Imagine if they all performed together, that would've been something.)
I'm not 100% sure I'd induct Sonny Rollins in the HOF. He's recorded wonderful solos on both record...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZ77IZxTME
and stage...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaD6GAQmjA
But outside of that, I'm not sure he's had a profound influence or a deeper connection with rock - those examples feel more like outliers. Maybe someone can prove me wrong, I'd love to be, but I think any role he has in rock history is more the result of residual influence, which is inevitable of any artist of his stature. He's definitely a serious contender for jazz's greater tenor saxophonist - a highly subjective argument, but objectively speaking he's in a rarefied group.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 18 February 2021 22:23 (three years ago) link
Sun Ra should be in.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 18 February 2021 23:03 (three years ago) link
Also Stockhausen
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 19 February 2021 00:02 (three years ago) link
J/k, I'm fine with them limiting it to famous rock artists.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 19 February 2021 00:03 (three years ago) link
Are they considered an authority? Mostly, is there a jump in sales when an artist is included in the HOF?
― Van Horn Street, Friday, 19 February 2021 00:45 (three years ago) link
It varies, but there can be, yes.
https://www.spin.com/2020/11/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-financial-impact-artists/
― birdistheword, Friday, 19 February 2021 00:48 (three years ago) link
Which reminds me, Ornette Coleman deserves to be inducted as an influence. (Maybe it's time to ditch the adjective "early.".
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Friday, 19 February 2021 16:15 (three years ago) link
Stones-sequel sure why not but that autocorrected from Stones-esque
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Friday, 19 February 2021 16:18 (three years ago) link
Johann Sebastian Bach: early influencer
― Siegbran, Friday, 19 February 2021 19:45 (three years ago) link
Ha, I mentioned that above. He has been outright quoted by more than one rock band.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 19 February 2021 19:49 (three years ago) link
The Seikilos epitaph is the OG rock song imo.
― pomenitul, Friday, 19 February 2021 19:49 (three years ago) link
Can't get much more rock than something that is literally carved into stone
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 19 February 2021 19:52 (three years ago) link
lol, indeed. :)
― pomenitul, Friday, 19 February 2021 19:52 (three years ago) link
The carpe diem-themed lyrics are also rock 'n' roll af:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBpSxRGudNE
― pomenitul, Friday, 19 February 2021 19:55 (three years ago) link
One thing I don't get at all: electing Muddy Waters to the main hall (good) but putting Howlin' Wolf in as an "early influence" instead. They're born within three years of each other; according to Wikipedia, their careers both go back to the '30s; their first albums on Chess came out within a year of each other. I get Robert Johnson as an early influence, but my guess is, besides the close parallel to Waters, Howlin' Wolf has been covered by just as many if not more rock bands.
Friends were making fun of me a while back when they discovered I had my Howlin' Wolf albums filed in the 'W' section. "You realize his surname isn't 'Wolf,' right?"
― clemenza, Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:43 (three years ago) link
I also would’ve put them under ‘W’ – it’s his stage name, right? (Do your friends put Muddy Waters under ‘M’? Iggy Pop under ‘I’?)
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:52 (three years ago) link
Do they put him under "H" or "B"? (I think I do put him under "H" but it seems questionable now.)
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 February 2021 16:54 (three years ago) link
I think of Pop as made-up surname, but a surname nonetheless; I think Howlin' Wolf is meant more as a two-word phrase? Muddy Waters (who I've also had in the W's for years) seems more like Howlin' Wolf, a phrase. I don't know. Nor am I sure if Mama Cass should go in the 'M' or the 'E' section.
― clemenza, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:21 (three years ago) link
Once I decide, I'm going to start classifying each letter into "rock and roll" and "early influence" sub-sections.
― clemenza, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:26 (three years ago) link
There’s a joke here: “Where do you put Meat Loaf records?” “Oh, that one’s easy—nowhere, I don’t own any.”
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:27 (three years ago) link
Yeah, I think I always just thought of "Meat Loaf" and "Howlin Wolf" as two-word phrases as opposed to first name/surname so classified them by the 1st letter but am not sure that's defensible.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:29 (three years ago) link
I was curious as whether the NY Times referred to him as Mr. Loaf. They don't.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/arts/meatloaf-bat-out-of-hell.html
― clemenza, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:30 (three years ago) link
my rule is if its a legal first & last name, its filed under surname. if theres any nickname or alteration whatsoever, it goes under first letter. anything else gets too confusing for me. screaming jay hawkins under s, muddy waters under m, meat loaf in the trash
― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:35 (three years ago) link
I can see it both ways—but the fact that Wolf and Waters could be “normal” last names at least makes an argument for treating them that way, while “Loaf” doesn’t.
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:37 (three years ago) link
What is the distinction there?
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:38 (three years ago) link
Just that "Waters" and "Wolf" exist as Anglo-Saxon last names?
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:39 (three years ago) link
I was kidding about the Times--Meatloaf's just one word, you can't split it up. It'd by like filing Blowfly in the 'F' section.
― clemenza, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:40 (three years ago) link
I'm wrong! It is two words. My joke is salvaged.
― clemenza, Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:41 (three years ago) link
I thought he does spell it as 2 capitalized words?xp ah
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:42 (three years ago) link
xxp Anglo-Saxon(?) They’re just not uncommon surnames in the US. No one is named “Loaf.”
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:49 (three years ago) link
Ha: https://www.ancestry.ca/name-origin?surname=loaf&geo_a=r&geo_s=us&geo_t=ca&geo_v=2.0.0&_ga=2.219026577.921939885.1613843597-1391661623.1613843597&o_iid=41015&o_lid=41015&o_sch=Web+Property
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 February 2021 17:54 (three years ago) link
To me, it makes more sense to look at the first names. Does Howlin' make sense as a stand-alone name without Wolf? Did people actually address him as Howlin'?
Muddy Waters is also a two-word phrase, of course, but it's easier to imagine Muddy (rhymes with Buddy) as a stand-alone name.
From an interview:
"All of a sudden I became Muddy Waters. You know? Just overnight. People started to speakin', hollerin' across the streets at me. When they used to hardly say good morning, you know. I could walk down the street--'Hey, Muddy! Hey, Muddy! There go Muddy!"
― jaymc, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:13 (three years ago) link
I'm almost positive my entire rationale for any of this traces to the first (red) Rolling Stone Record Guide: they have both Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters filed under 'W' in their blues section. Elsewhere, Captain Beefheart is filed under 'B', the Captain & Tennille under 'C', Meat Loaf and Mama Cass under 'M'. They seem not to have given inconsistencies a great deal of thought.
― clemenza, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:18 (three years ago) link
Captain & Tennille is easy, of course that’s under “C.” I can see why Beefheart would be a toss-up, though I would probably also use “B.”
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:21 (three years ago) link
Howlin' Wolf under 'H', Captain Beefheart under 'C', because they are titles, not names. Muddy Waters under 'W', Iggy Pop under 'P', because they are names, even though they are pseudonyms.Cat Stevens under 'S', even though everyone called him Steve in the 70s.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:35 (three years ago) link
Dr. John under 'D', also a title rather than a name.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:37 (three years ago) link
Iggy and the Stooges under 'I', Alice Cooper 1969-1974 under 'A', because they are group names.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:38 (three years ago) link
So you separate Raw Power from the other Stooges records?
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:39 (three years ago) link
Fwiw I always file Bob Dylan under W because his real name is Lucky Wilbury.
― illumi-naughty (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:47 (three years ago) link
Yes, and separate from the Iggy Pop solo records too.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 20 February 2021 18:49 (three years ago) link
Where do you guys file MC / DJ ______ artists?
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:03 (three years ago) link
The only one I own is DJ Shadow, under 'D', although I can see how someone with a lot would use a different filing system.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:10 (three years ago) link
Howlin' Wolf was Howlin' Wolf, this is canon
https://i.imgur.com/Yfek1IB.jpeg
― Jonathan Hellion Mumble, Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:43 (three years ago) link
TS: Miles vs (Col)trane
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:55 (three years ago) link
where the fuck is count basie
― Left, Saturday, 20 February 2021 19:58 (three years ago) link
for that matter where the fuck is Count Bass D?
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 20 February 2021 20:08 (three years ago) link
I hate every count I see from Count Base D to Count Base E
― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Saturday, 20 February 2021 20:11 (three years ago) link
Pumpkins, Smashing
― Siegbran, Saturday, 20 February 2021 20:31 (three years ago) link
Smiling politely, Homer Simpson
― stilt in the wings (sic), Saturday, 20 February 2021 20:36 (three years ago) link