Just to clarify my own post above, when I reeled off that list--"Kate Bush belongs, etc."--I mixed people who are in the HOF and who aren't; I meant they all belong under the umbrella of whatever the hall defines as rock and roll, not that every person/band I mentioned should be inducted.
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 05:11 (three years ago) link
(John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing.)I don’t think there are any country/c&w artists, either. Johnny Cash may the closest? — unless I’m forgetting someone.
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Thursday, 18 February 2021 05:23 (three years ago) link
Hank Williams and Jimmie Rodgers, the latter as an early influence, the former with apparently no designation.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 18 February 2021 05:26 (three years ago) link
Thanks – looks like they’re both in as Early Influences. (I was just looking at Performers)
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Thursday, 18 February 2021 05:43 (three years ago) link
John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing
miles davis was inducted, as a performer.
― fact checking cuz, Thursday, 18 February 2021 07:24 (three years ago) link
and country music hall of famers bob wills and bill monroe as early influences.
― fact checking cuz, Thursday, 18 February 2021 07:28 (three years ago) link
Bootsy on Fela:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/bootsy-collins-interview-fela-kuti-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-1128823/
― stilt in the wings (sic), Thursday, 18 February 2021 09:19 (three years ago) link
At some point, people practically started m/l limiting the definition of "rock" to what would have been called "heavy metal" at one time. I don't think Iron Maiden are a more obvious descendent of Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and Frankie Lymon than Tina Turner or Chaka Khan are.
― Siegbran, Thursday, 18 February 2021 11:53 (three years ago) link
Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).
the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)
― tiwa-nty one savage (voodoo chili), Thursday, 18 February 2021 12:57 (three years ago) link
miles davis was inducted, as a performer
Miles much more involved in jazz-rock/electric fusion than Coltrane obv. It's not at all obvious to me why Coltrane would belong, although it would be nice to live in a world where the "rock audience" bought more hard bop, modal, and free jazz records.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 18 February 2021 13:35 (three years ago) link
xpost seigbran otmmotorhead's much closer to the ramones than any metal band
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 18 February 2021 13:52 (three years ago) link
(xpost) For me, in the sense of what I wrote above: that Coltrane fits under that amorphous umbrella of music "embraced by what's generally thought of as the rock audience." Davis is obviously more directly connected to rock and roll, but when a university roommate got me onto Coltrane, it felt like a natural fit.
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:17 (three years ago) link
Coltrane was a big influence on Rock instrumentalists starting in the Psychedelic Era.
― "what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:19 (three years ago) link
I mean, by sheer numbers, he clearly doesn't sell to all of the people who also listen to Journey and Bon Jovi (or the Rolling Stones), though, so how are we defining the rock audience? xp
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:21 (three years ago) link
C. Grisso's point is interesting. Bach also a major influence on a lot of rock artists from "Whiter Shade of Pale" through last year's Deep Purple album. A worthy candidate as well? I'm all for it!
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:23 (three years ago) link
Pachelbel's sequential bass progression has been used in enough rock songs that he probably deserves a nod.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:25 (three years ago) link
the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)I was thinking this last night! (Also, they legit should be in.)
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:28 (three years ago) link
Has Ravi Shankar ever been nominated?
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:32 (three years ago) link
so how are we defining the rock audience?
I don't have a cut-and-dried answer for that. I'm kind of approaching it subjectively, as a certain kind of listener (a cliché, I know) who came up through the '70s reading Bangs and Marcus and Christgau and others. My sense of what fits under that umbrella is heavily influenced by that era of rock critics, and Coltrane most definitely does. Ravi Shankar, too!
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:35 (three years ago) link
Which is, I should add, not entirely subjective, because I think my sense of that is aligned with the people (Wenner, I know, but it must have been others besides him) who came up with this thing in the first place.
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:40 (three years ago) link
Haha, inducting Queen and Rush was the ultimate travesty by that standard.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:40 (three years ago) link
To me, one of the things that defines a genre is its borders. There would be something patronizing about Willie Nelson or Coltrane in this hall, like saying "they were so good at [their main genre], they were actually Rock!" I mean, does anyone want giants in their field like George Jones or Duke Ellington in the Rock Hall of Fame? How about Polka king Frankie Yankovic?
Also, what I was getting at with Kate Bush was not that she isn't/doesn't Rock, but that certain artists resist the kind of valourization of being put in any kind of "Hall". Like her music is so introverted or inward-facing that putting it in a glass box next to Def Leppard's torn jeans seems distasteful and disrespectful to me. There's a certain artistic fragility (or maybe, yes, preciousness) that comes out when some artist's music is blown up to be "more than music". Like I adore Talk Talk, but a big statue of Mark Hollis on a hill somewhere would feel highly inappropriate.
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 18 February 2021 15:49 (three years ago) link
How about “Weird Al” Yankovic!
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Thursday, 18 February 2021 16:28 (three years ago) link
the rock n' roll hall of fame is a fundamentally flawed institution that can not be salvaged and i will never stop paying attention to it and complaining about it
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 18 February 2021 16:29 (three years ago) link
for whatever reason the Hall refused to induct the one black member of The Cure, with a definitiveness that almost made Smith refuse to take part - iirc they only skipped one white member from the 44 years of turnover
― stilt in the wings (sic), Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:30 (three years ago) link
that's one of the most annoying parts of it, they get to decide who was "really" a member. like when bob welch got snubbed by fleetwood mac even though he was the leader of the band for almost as many albums as lindsay buckingham
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:33 (three years ago) link
^^That was Fleetwood's decision, because Welch was suing the band for back royalties at the time of induction.
OTOH, bands can lobby for inductees in their orbit. Jerry Garcia made sure Robert Hunter and Mountain Girl got in when The Dead were inducted.
― "what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:39 (three years ago) link
There was another instance of that within the past five years that made news--someone who wanted to be included and wasn't; my memory is that I sided with the person left out--but I'm blanking out on who it was.
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:46 (three years ago) link
Re: country inductees, forgot, Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys are also in as early influences.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:47 (three years ago) link
agh, nm, already posted
― birdistheword, Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:48 (three years ago) link
Jefferson Airplane's latter-day drummer Joey Covington complained about being excluded, his main defence being that he wrote and sang "Pretty as You Feel", one of their few charting singles.
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:51 (three years ago) link
Once a nominated band gets in, is the decision of which members to induct made by the RRHOF Board? Or are the members decided in advance, and listed on the ballot?
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:54 (three years ago) link
The one I'm thinking of is much more recent than the Airplane (and I think the person was more prominent than Covington). It's a hard thing to search, because you just get lists of the most egregious HOF snubs.
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 18:59 (three years ago) link
Was it Chad Channing (Nirvana)?
― stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Thursday, 18 February 2021 19:15 (three years ago) link
No...It'll come to me eventually. Let me scan the last few years of inductees, maybe that'll do it.
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 19:24 (three years ago) link
Iirc Deep Purple were selective, only letting in members from the '70s lineups.
― "what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 February 2021 19:26 (three years ago) link
I looked at the list and figured out what I was thinking of: the mini-controversy about whether Bun E. Carlos would get to play with Cheap Trick at the induction. I think it just had to do with the performance itself (and I take it he did indeed get to play with them).
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 19:27 (three years ago) link
otm. McGuinn always mentions Coltrane is the model and inspiration for his guitar playing on "Eight Miles High," and his lead guitar is basically the heart and foundation of that entire record. The free jazz element of MC5 and probably the first two Stooges albums were heavily influenced by Coltrane's work as much as Coleman's, if not moreso.
Which reminds me, Ornette Coleman deserves to be inducted as an influence. (Maybe it's time to ditch the adjective "early.") His final public appearance (which wasn't even certain due to his health) came at a tribute show in Prospect Park - it's been released as an album in its own right, and both the line-up and the performances show how much of his influence continued to be felt in the rock underground and avant-garde, even gaining a broader audience in the alternative era.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 18 February 2021 21:28 (three years ago) link
*Coltrane as the model
― birdistheword, Thursday, 18 February 2021 21:30 (three years ago) link
Too bad they didn't put Coleman in while he was still alive (died 2015). I don't know if Sonny Rollins is in, but if not, he should be a priority. One thing that's become an issue with the baseball HOF is when they induct someone literally months after they die--happened with Ron Santo, and it may happen soon with Dick Allen. As you wrote above, no matter how much we carp and nitpick about this thing--and no matter how much half the people in there might ridicule it--I think it really does mean a lot to some of the early performers, particularly, as an example, artists like the Shirelles, who got cheated out money, who were ignored for decades as "serious artists," and then at least got this one honor. (And actually I don't know if all the Shirelles were alive when they were inducted, if any.)
― clemenza, Thursday, 18 February 2021 21:59 (three years ago) link
Re: the Shirelles, three of the four members were actually there - Addie "Micki" Harris had already passed away but her husband accepted on her behalf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHP-2CSXqPA
A lot of the induction and acceptance speeches are officially online. The famously bad ones may not be, but you can find the good ones, like the Beatles (George is very eloquent in his acceptance) and the Stones (Townshend inducts them and roasts them). Trent Reznor slagged the HOF for a long time, but obviously he changed his mind and you can see how disappointed he is with his Zoom acceptance due to the pandemic - as he mentions, he was hoping to reunite all past and present members on stage and just "have a moment." (Imagine if they all performed together, that would've been something.)
I'm not 100% sure I'd induct Sonny Rollins in the HOF. He's recorded wonderful solos on both record...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZ77IZxTME
and stage...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaD6GAQmjA
But outside of that, I'm not sure he's had a profound influence or a deeper connection with rock - those examples feel more like outliers. Maybe someone can prove me wrong, I'd love to be, but I think any role he has in rock history is more the result of residual influence, which is inevitable of any artist of his stature. He's definitely a serious contender for jazz's greater tenor saxophonist - a highly subjective argument, but objectively speaking he's in a rarefied group.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 18 February 2021 22:23 (three years ago) link
Sun Ra should be in.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 18 February 2021 23:03 (three years ago) link
Also Stockhausen
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 19 February 2021 00:02 (three years ago) link
J/k, I'm fine with them limiting it to famous rock artists.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 19 February 2021 00:03 (three years ago) link
Are they considered an authority? Mostly, is there a jump in sales when an artist is included in the HOF?
― Van Horn Street, Friday, 19 February 2021 00:45 (three years ago) link
It varies, but there can be, yes.
https://www.spin.com/2020/11/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-financial-impact-artists/
― birdistheword, Friday, 19 February 2021 00:48 (three years ago) link
Which reminds me, Ornette Coleman deserves to be inducted as an influence. (Maybe it's time to ditch the adjective "early.".
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Friday, 19 February 2021 16:15 (three years ago) link
Stones-sequel sure why not but that autocorrected from Stones-esque
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Friday, 19 February 2021 16:18 (three years ago) link
Johann Sebastian Bach: early influencer
― Siegbran, Friday, 19 February 2021 19:45 (three years ago) link
Ha, I mentioned that above. He has been outright quoted by more than one rock band.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 19 February 2021 19:49 (three years ago) link