2021 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees POLL

In retrospect, I'd say rock was more or less defined as post-WWII pop music without it ever being articulated that way.

I think it has been articulated that way many times! (post-1955 anyway)

It's following the same trajectory as rock 'n' roll, but much more slowly

That's the impression I got. To be fair, they're not inducting who they should be chronologically - there are a lot of latecomers that should've been in decades ago - but if you look through Robert Christgau's annual Pazz & Jop essays going back to 1974, he does talk about that a lot. He intentionally tracks the development of pop music along racial (and even gender) lines year by year, in terms of who was listening to what and how that music was being recognized, either critically or through sales. With the HOF currently tracking the growth of hip-hop, some of those numbers should be reversing themselves, but if there is actual pushback against hip-hop (maybe not against the biggest names, but enough that important figures like LL Cool J, Boogie Down Productions, Eric B. & Rakim, etc. have been passed over, and hell even OutKast - how are they not nominated yet?) that could explain things.

At some point, people practically started m/l limiting the definition of "rock" to what would have been called "heavy metal" at one time. I don't think Iron Maiden are a more obvious descendent of Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and Frankie Lymon than Tina Turner or Chaka Khan are. xp

I think it has been articulated that way many times! (post-1955 anyway)

If I'm totally wrong, I'm fine with that, but I've never heard it articulated that broadly. Perhaps rightly, it's usually defined by articulating its roots (mostly country and blues). You can extrapolate that definition if you understand the history or timeline of that music, but I've never heard it defined in those broader terms. Again, maybe there's a good reason for that, but you can see how that also leads to questions of "is this rock?" with hip-hop, reggae, etc.

Oh, right, I see what you mean, I was probably speaking too broadly and reacting to narrower definitions. I don't think Kate Bush requires an especially radical stretch in the definition, though.

Just to clarify my own post above, when I reeled off that list--"Kate Bush belongs, etc."--I mixed people who are in the HOF and who aren't; I meant they all belong under the umbrella of whatever the hall defines as rock and roll, not that every person/band I mentioned should be inducted.

(John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing.)

I don’t think there are any country/c&w artists, either. Johnny Cash may the closest? — unless I’m forgetting someone.

Hank Williams and Jimmie Rodgers, the latter as an early influence, the former with apparently no designation.

Thanks – looks like they’re both in as Early Influences. (I was just looking at Performers)

John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing

miles davis was inducted, as a performer.

and country music hall of famers bob wills and bill monroe as early influences.

Bootsy on Fela:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/bootsy-collins-interview-fela-kuti-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-1128823/

At some point, people practically started m/l limiting the definition of "rock" to what would have been called "heavy metal" at one time. I don't think Iron Maiden are a more obvious descendent of Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and Frankie Lymon than Tina Turner or Chaka Khan are.

Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)

miles davis was inducted, as a performer

Miles much more involved in jazz-rock/electric fusion than Coltrane obv. It's not at all obvious to me why Coltrane would belong, although it would be nice to live in a world where the "rock audience" bought more hard bop, modal, and free jazz records.

xpost seigbran otm

motorhead's much closer to the ramones than any metal band

(xpost) For me, in the sense of what I wrote above: that Coltrane fits under that amorphous umbrella of music "embraced by what's generally thought of as the rock audience." Davis is obviously more directly connected to rock and roll, but when a university roommate got me onto Coltrane, it felt like a natural fit.

Coltrane was a big influence on Rock instrumentalists starting in the Psychedelic Era.

I mean, by sheer numbers, he clearly doesn't sell to all of the people who also listen to Journey and Bon Jovi (or the Rolling Stones), though, so how are we defining the rock audience? xp

C. Grisso's point is interesting. Bach also a major influence on a lot of rock artists from "Whiter Shade of Pale" through last year's Deep Purple album. A worthy candidate as well? I'm all for it!

Pachelbel's sequential bass progression has been used in enough rock songs that he probably deserves a nod.

the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)

I was thinking this last night! (Also, they legit should be in.)

Has Ravi Shankar ever been nominated?

so how are we defining the rock audience?

I don't have a cut-and-dried answer for that. I'm kind of approaching it subjectively, as a certain kind of listener (a cliché, I know) who came up through the '70s reading Bangs and Marcus and Christgau and others. My sense of what fits under that umbrella is heavily influenced by that era of rock critics, and Coltrane most definitely does. Ravi Shankar, too!

Which is, I should add, not entirely subjective, because I think my sense of that is aligned with the people (Wenner, I know, but it must have been others besides him) who came up with this thing in the first place.

Haha, inducting Queen and Rush was the ultimate travesty by that standard.

To me, one of the things that defines a genre is its borders. There would be something patronizing about Willie Nelson or Coltrane in this hall, like saying "they were so good at [their main genre], they were actually Rock!" I mean, does anyone want giants in their field like George Jones or Duke Ellington in the Rock Hall of Fame? How about Polka king Frankie Yankovic?

Also, what I was getting at with Kate Bush was not that she isn't/doesn't Rock, but that certain artists resist the kind of valourization of being put in any kind of "Hall". Like her music is so introverted or inward-facing that putting it in a glass box next to Def Leppard's torn jeans seems distasteful and disrespectful to me. There's a certain artistic fragility (or maybe, yes, preciousness) that comes out when some artist's music is blown up to be "more than music". Like I adore Talk Talk, but a big statue of Mark Hollis on a hill somewhere would feel highly inappropriate.

How about “Weird Al” Yankovic!

the rock n' roll hall of fame is a fundamentally flawed institution that can not be salvaged and i will never stop paying attention to it and complaining about it

Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

for whatever reason the Hall refused to induct the one black member of The Cure, with a definitiveness that almost made Smith refuse to take part - iirc they only skipped one white member from the 44 years of turnover

that's one of the most annoying parts of it, they get to decide who was "really" a member. like when bob welch got snubbed by fleetwood mac even though he was the leader of the band for almost as many albums as lindsay buckingham

^^That was Fleetwood's decision, because Welch was suing the band for back royalties at the time of induction.

OTOH, bands can lobby for inductees in their orbit. Jerry Garcia made sure Robert Hunter and Mountain Girl got in when The Dead were inducted.

There was another instance of that within the past five years that made news--someone who wanted to be included and wasn't; my memory is that I sided with the person left out--but I'm blanking out on who it was.

Re: country inductees, forgot, Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys are also in as early influences.

agh, nm, already posted

Jefferson Airplane's latter-day drummer Joey Covington complained about being excluded, his main defence being that he wrote and sang "Pretty as You Feel", one of their few charting singles.

Once a nominated band gets in, is the decision of which members to induct made by the RRHOF Board? Or are the members decided in advance, and listed on the ballot?

The one I'm thinking of is much more recent than the Airplane (and I think the person was more prominent than Covington). It's a hard thing to search, because you just get lists of the most egregious HOF snubs.

Was it Chad Channing (Nirvana)?

No...It'll come to me eventually. Let me scan the last few years of inductees, maybe that'll do it.

Iirc Deep Purple were selective, only letting in members from the '70s lineups.

I looked at the list and figured out what I was thinking of: the mini-controversy about whether Bun E. Carlos would get to play with Cheap Trick at the induction. I think it just had to do with the performance itself (and I take it he did indeed get to play with them).

Coltrane was a big influence on Rock instrumentalists starting in the Psychedelic Era.

otm. McGuinn always mentions Coltrane is the model and inspiration for his guitar playing on "Eight Miles High," and his lead guitar is basically the heart and foundation of that entire record. The free jazz element of MC5 and probably the first two Stooges albums were heavily influenced by Coltrane's work as much as Coleman's, if not moreso.

Which reminds me, Ornette Coleman deserves to be inducted as an influence. (Maybe it's time to ditch the adjective "early.") His final public appearance (which wasn't even certain due to his health) came at a tribute show in Prospect Park - it's been released as an album in its own right, and both the line-up and the performances show how much of his influence continued to be felt in the rock underground and avant-garde, even gaining a broader audience in the alternative era.

*Coltrane as the model

Too bad they didn't put Coleman in while he was still alive (died 2015). I don't know if Sonny Rollins is in, but if not, he should be a priority. One thing that's become an issue with the baseball HOF is when they induct someone literally months after they die--happened with Ron Santo, and it may happen soon with Dick Allen. As you wrote above, no matter how much we carp and nitpick about this thing--and no matter how much half the people in there might ridicule it--I think it really does mean a lot to some of the early performers, particularly, as an example, artists like the Shirelles, who got cheated out money, who were ignored for decades as "serious artists," and then at least got this one honor. (And actually I don't know if all the Shirelles were alive when they were inducted, if any.)

Re: the Shirelles, three of the four members were actually there - Addie "Micki" Harris had already passed away but her husband accepted on her behalf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHP-2CSXqPA

A lot of the induction and acceptance speeches are officially online. The famously bad ones may not be, but you can find the good ones, like the Beatles (George is very eloquent in his acceptance) and the Stones (Townshend inducts them and roasts them). Trent Reznor slagged the HOF for a long time, but obviously he changed his mind and you can see how disappointed he is with his Zoom acceptance due to the pandemic - as he mentions, he was hoping to reunite all past and present members on stage and just "have a moment." (Imagine if they all performed together, that would've been something.)

I'm not 100% sure I'd induct Sonny Rollins in the HOF. He's recorded wonderful solos on both record...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZ77IZxTME

and stage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaD6GAQmjA

But outside of that, I'm not sure he's had a profound influence or a deeper connection with rock - those examples feel more like outliers. Maybe someone can prove me wrong, I'd love to be, but I think any role he has in rock history is more the result of residual influence, which is inevitable of any artist of his stature. He's definitely a serious contender for jazz's greater tenor saxophonist - a highly subjective argument, but objectively speaking he's in a rarefied group.

Sun Ra should be in.

Also Stockhausen

J/k, I'm fine with them limiting it to famous rock artists.

Are they considered an authority? Mostly, is there a jump in sales when an artist is included in the HOF?