modern lovers is incel rock for sure. maybe not militant incel rock. but he's definitely planting some seeds there for sure. that's also an overrated but still listenable album.
as far as my prog thing, enh. a bit hyperbole maybe, but today's neckbeards are just yesterday's rabid genesis fans. i wasn't a person in 1975, but i can say 100% for certain that there were more than a few trench coats and fedoras worn to king crimson gigs. of course the bands partied hard — the fans would have too, had they been given the opportunity.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:42 (three years ago) link
more and more I think that Kogan theory that we have gut reactions to music then make up the reasons later is pretty much correct
There's quite a bit of truth to that but gut reactions don't come out of nowhere. We're reacting to something in the music, even if the spectrum of responses is mind-bogglingly broad.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:45 (three years ago) link
gut reactions don't come out of nowhere. We're reacting to something in the music
getting far afield from pet sounds but as a general principle I'd say gut reactions very frequently come out of nowhere, and even when they come from somewhere, it's often from your own interior and isn't related to its ostensible outside referent
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:00 (three years ago) link
The Modern Lovers' "I'm Straight" always struck me as the perfect "self-proclaimed nice guy is actually a total creep" song
tr33ship has a whole thing on this; I think we debated it on the thread devoted to this topic (songs where the singer is supposedly coming off as a creep).
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:02 (three years ago) link
or actually I think his thing was about the song "Hospital"
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:03 (three years ago) link
Nah, that's borderline solipsism. I think the range of possible responses is so wide that we tend to assume it could be literally anything, but that's not quite true, strictly speaking. Music is more than a Rorschach test imo.
2xp
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:05 (three years ago) link
xpHospital discussion rings a bell.
I think where I differ with a lot of "I'm Straight" takes is when I first heard it I assumed the point of the song was to mock the narrator (the bit where he begrudgingly pretends to also like Hippie Johnny cracks me up, his neuroses are so transparent), and no amount of learning about Richman will ever dislodge that interpretation from my brain.
― rob, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:07 (three years ago) link
xp It's not nothin. And you already related all this to a hatred of "kiddie" music that could go back to before you're aware. Let's explore!
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:12 (three years ago) link
have always been impressed by how clearly the lyrics of Wouldn't It Be Nice convey the exact teenage emotion it’s going for. in that sense it is a good B-side to God Only Knows, which although more adult and complicated is also very direct and yearning
― Dan S, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:14 (three years ago) link
And you already related all this to a hatred of "kiddie" music that could go back to before you're aware.
Then it makes sense that I would react poorly to music that foregrounds tweenage themes, no? I'm bringing something to the table – my own biases – but that 'something' is a direct response to what's in the music, so I don't think it's fair to say that it comes out of nowhere. Apologies if I'm misreading you, but my 'gut reaction' to PS would be way more subjective if I were railing against its supposed timbral distortion and abrasiveness, say (now that would be bizarre!).
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:20 (three years ago) link
xxxp I've always thought of Richman as being pretty self-aware in those songs, in terms of what his "narrator" was expressing (NB: I know almost nothing about JR personally, or the degree to which he was/is really "like that"). I also just think mocking "hippie Johnny" is hilarious (the "I like him too..." line may be one of my all-time favorites).
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:26 (three years ago) link
My read of eephus's "your own interior" would include the biases you bring.
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:28 (three years ago) link
Yeah, but they added 'and isn't related to its ostensible outside referent', which I think is a step too far.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:30 (three years ago) link
It would be too far to say that's how you relate to all music, but not that it happened in this seemingly extreme case. It's a possible thing, no?
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:36 (three years ago) link
Is Genesis's Selling England By the Pound "upsell rock"?
― Wrong Screamed Barney (Neanderthal), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:39 (three years ago) link
It's technically possible, yes, but since I'm hardly the only person who feels this way about PS, and for very similar reasons, it seems highly unlikely. Look, it just sounds painfully corny to my ears – that's not an especially outlandish or surreal statement, I don't think.
xp
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:41 (three years ago) link
I have no issue. I think it has rightfully come down a peg from the turn of the century hyperbole. I think people were just trying to help you stop waking up in terror about how bad it is?
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:47 (three years ago) link
lol, and I do appreciate it!
Behind every challop itt is a cry for help.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:48 (three years ago) link
Haha, Neanderthal.
I think this is the most I've ever disagreed with pomenitul!
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:03 (three years ago) link
it’s too bad some of the lyrics are creepy because musically that modern lovers album is so righteous
― brimstead, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:03 (three years ago) link
I guess I feel the “creepy” lyrics are a feature, not a bug.
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:05 (three years ago) link
does richman’s later stuff have that same creepy vibe? it’s been a while since i listened to any of it but it seemed like he went off in a pretty different direction.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:07 (three years ago) link
yeah, jr's an eccentric guy — maybe it was intentional?
also have to agree that just the overall sound and sonic aesthetic of pet sounds is pretty schmaltzy. still decent tho.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:09 (three years ago) link
Alas. I'm sure you've got a (to me) hair-raising musical challop up your sleeve (or two)!
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:10 (three years ago) link
xp I think the later stuff is where he became genuinely “childlike” (to circle back above); I haven’t heard much of it, though.To expand further on my earlier thought: I think the concept of eating health food at home suuuucks, but it’s interesting to hear a song’s narrator rationalize, “I don’t wanna hang out with your junky ass anyway!”
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:11 (three years ago) link
"wouldn't it be nice" is a queer anthem if you ask me.
yeah and as I said if a queer teenager in 2021 (e.g., my own personal offspring) hears that, then I am on board with that interpretation
I get that Brian himself was neither queer nor incel. But if these readings are gaining resonance 54-55 years onward, then maybe somethiing interesting is going on
But I also don't wanna join in boomer nostalgia-worship, that shit is played out like an eight-track
― pot sounds (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:21 (three years ago) link
Music is more than a Rorschach test imo.
How is this even up for discussion lol
― Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:26 (three years ago) link
A dial tone can be either The Tired Sounds of Stars of the Lid or London Calling depending on who's listening to it, y'know.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:28 (three years ago) link
music is entirely a Rorschach test
― Dan S, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:30 (three years ago) link
the whole concept of controversial music opinions is an argument for subjectivity, that all expressions of our likes and dislikes are a product of our personalities and experiences and not related to any outside referents
― Dan S, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:31 (three years ago) link
As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as music.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:32 (three years ago) link
I mean, my reaction to Pet Sounds is/was pretty much the complete polar opposite of pomenitul's, down to: my love of PS misled me to believe that i might give a shit about "critically acclaimed music". I mean, there are records i prefer to Pet Sounds but few if any that appear on music critics' lists.
But ok, if you're going to argue that it's "painfully corny", i can't honestly say that "painfully corny" has nothing at all to do with my experience of Pet Sounds
― Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:33 (three years ago) link
At some point, I will attempt to write something about why I don't think it's corny or juvenile, although if music is purely a Rorschach tests and all responses to it are pure interiority with no relation to outside referents and existence is meaningless, I'm not sure if there's a point. What good would writing do me?
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:38 (three years ago) link
Honestly I find it very easy to put myself in the shoes of people who strongly dislike the music that I love. A given musical quality can fall on one side of the critical divide or the other depending on who's listening, but that doesn't mean we're hearing completely different things, solipsistically.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:39 (three years ago) link
Pet Sounds is a chicken casserole imo.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:40 (three years ago) link
Like, if someone says Gilmour-era Pink Floyd is terminally boring faux-deep dadcore or whatever, I know exactly what they're talking about, even though I myself don't experience it the same way at all.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:41 (three years ago) link
I'm guessing you mean "Gilmour era" as in "post-Piper" but if you mean the post-Waters Gilmour-led Pink Floyd, that's actually impressive and maybe a controp if you hear none of it that way.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:46 (three years ago) link
I do mean post-Piper, yeah. That wasn't entirely clear, sorry.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:47 (three years ago) link
As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as music.― pomenitul, Monday, February 1, 2021 4:32 PM
― pomenitul, Monday, February 1, 2021 4:32 PM
earlier in this very topic, i believe it was me who declared that all bands are terrible.
i'd like to think the proper way to word this conclusion is:
all bands are terrible, so as a matter of fact, there is no such thing as music.
throw the rorschach thing in there, and yeah: just cut my ears off, we're done here. the whole thing was noting but a stupid thought experiment. cue simpsons clip of comic book guy about to die.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:47 (three years ago) link
Alternatively, 'Talk Talk is just some mumbling self-important bloke singing formless songs with no proper hooks' is also an understandable statement, regardless of how much I might emotionally disagree with it.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:48 (three years ago) link
New board description imo.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:49 (three years ago) link
I wasn't trying to say that opinions about music are worthless, they are what I live for here
― Dan S, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:53 (three years ago) link
When people say a piece of music is "corny" very often what that means ime is that it's overtly emotionally manipulative, PS is totally "guilty" in that sense. And others.
I don't think it's juvenile, but then again i'm extremely juvenile myself.
― Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:59 (three years ago) link
Itt people are presuming that the way to discredit the concept of a rorschach test is to deny the existence of ink and paper
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 01:03 (three years ago) link
Also, *this* is yr new board description:
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:38 (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Bit long for a board description
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 01:04 (three years ago) link
neither queer nor incel.
― maf you one two (maffew12), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 01:04 (three years ago) link
Fancy seeing you here, deems.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 01:05 (three years ago) link
Mandated inspection and i dont like it any more'n you men do
― Qanondorf (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 01:07 (three years ago) link
Juicy ILX drama comes in different shapes and sizes. All of them are deserving imo.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 01:08 (three years ago) link