You know, there's something castrato-esque about the Beach Boys's vocal harmonies.
One of Brian's recurring hang-ups was that people might think singing so high was unmanly.
― Waterloo Subset (Tom D.), Monday, 1 February 2021 21:47 (three years ago) link
I don't think you need to get broader than "childishly silly or trivial", which for good or ill describes a large amount of pop music
― Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 February 2021 21:50 (three years ago) link
A large amount, yeah, no doubt about it.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 21:52 (three years ago) link
in the case of "wouldn't it be nice," which is about the ache of wanting to always have love - if that's childish subject matter then i don't want "adult" music.
― Joses Chrust (map), Monday, 1 February 2021 21:52 (three years ago) link
I have no bone to pick with the sentiment itself, but the way it's musically expressed in that song makes me want to retch, sorry.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 21:54 (three years ago) link
just chiming in to say that pet sounds is overrated, but still kinda good. i prefer to listen to the accapella version these days.
brian's 2004 SMiLE is amazing and my preferred version of the album.
in the imagination of a child, all music is children's music. that is all.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:01 (three years ago) link
Fwiw I very much agree with this and am for child-like rather than childish music – an admittedly fragile distinction.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:03 (three years ago) link
Is it controversial to suggest that Mike Love is an important element of the Beach Boys presentation, in that he adds an element of adult calculation and cynicism?
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:05 (three years ago) link
Actually, my very first impression on hearing Pet Sounds was that it's way more emotionally sophisticated- mature even- than whatever else I was listening to at that time (probably OK computer, funnily enough).
The "kiddie" element is fairly superficial imo, if anything it's disarming. I've walked around the San Diego Zoo with PS playing in my headphones and felt much closer to it listening in my bedroom. I mean, it's introspective to the point of being self-absorbed at times.
I don't know what jejune means, even after googling. But... the lyrics are really abstract, really not a lot of specific, concrete imagery for sure. I wouldn't fault someone for saying they're a little plain, what's really neat imo is that the music provides all the visual detail, the bicycle bells etc, that you normally would get from the words which is an interesting and effective flip.
― Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:13 (three years ago) link
Plus finger-guns.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:13 (three years ago) link
haha i thought that said "about someone" instead of "with someone" for a second
Both; it's a memoir.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:14 (three years ago) link
is "incel rock" a fake genre i'm gonna have to hear about now or can we cut it out as of today
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Monday, February 1, 2021 1:30 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
i guess it fits "add it up" by the violent femmes
― tiwa-nty one savage (voodoo chili), Monday, February 1, 2021 1:31 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
Not unless the meaning of "incel" is stretched so broadly as to contain the whole landscape of male sexual frustration -- in my view it properly refers to a frustrated sense of sexual *entitlement* curdling into bitterness. Writing "Add It Up" and rocking out with your fellow lonely frustrated bros is an act of fellowship, it's what you do INSTEAD of becoming an incel.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:21 (three years ago) link
Another way to put it: "Why can't I get just one fuck" is a rhetorical question, not a question whose implicit answer is "because women are evil and only want Chad"
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:22 (three years ago) link
Fwiw I very much agree with this and am for child-like rather than childish music – an admittedly fragile distinction.― pomenitul, Monday, February 1, 2021 2:03 PM
― pomenitul, Monday, February 1, 2021 2:03 PM
but i know exactly what you mean — and i agree.
again using mike love as the example: mature package, childish contents. i would say that pet sounds itself is kind of the exact opposite of that: childish package, mature contents.
RE: the "incel" angle — just, no. that word has become abused, much in the same sense of how "stan" was co-opted from "annoying super fan" into "mindless and unintelligent." and besides, in the 60s actual incels were creating and lobbying for prog rock. yes: shots fired. it's what i do and this is the topic for it.
good discussion in here today.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:26 (three years ago) link
hah true, it is indeed a song about being "involuntarily celibate" but not in a way that fits the philosophy of that particularly toxic online subculture
xp
― tiwa-nty one savage (voodoo chili), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:27 (three years ago) link
using mike love as the example: mature package
Idk :)
― Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:28 (three years ago) link
in the 60s actual incels were creating and lobbying for prog rock. yes: shots fired. it's what i do and this is the topic for it.
popcorn.gif
Please expand.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:29 (three years ago) link
The Modern Lovers' "I'm Straight" always struck me as the perfect "self-proclaimed nice guy is actually a total creep" song
― rob, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:29 (three years ago) link
Surf's Up is rad but in my (controversial) opinion it's Carl who's really bringing the heat (Feel FLows, Long Promised Road).
Though obviously the title track remains one of the finest things they did
― Washington Generals D-League affiliate (will), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:30 (three years ago) link
'Pablo Picasso' also seems relevant here.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:31 (three years ago) link
pomenitul at 4:29 1 Feb 21in the 60s actual incels were creating and lobbying for prog rock. yes: shots fired. it's what i do and this is the topic for it.popcorn.gifPlease expand.I bet prog rock bands partied like everyone else, all this is now is some word to project on to music you don't likemore and more I think that Kogan theory that we have gut reactions to music then make up the reasons later is pretty much correct
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:37 (three years ago) link
modern lovers is incel rock for sure. maybe not militant incel rock. but he's definitely planting some seeds there for sure. that's also an overrated but still listenable album.
as far as my prog thing, enh. a bit hyperbole maybe, but today's neckbeards are just yesterday's rabid genesis fans. i wasn't a person in 1975, but i can say 100% for certain that there were more than a few trench coats and fedoras worn to king crimson gigs. of course the bands partied hard — the fans would have too, had they been given the opportunity.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Monday, 1 February 2021 22:42 (three years ago) link
more and more I think that Kogan theory that we have gut reactions to music then make up the reasons later is pretty much correct
There's quite a bit of truth to that but gut reactions don't come out of nowhere. We're reacting to something in the music, even if the spectrum of responses is mind-bogglingly broad.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 22:45 (three years ago) link
gut reactions don't come out of nowhere. We're reacting to something in the music
getting far afield from pet sounds but as a general principle I'd say gut reactions very frequently come out of nowhere, and even when they come from somewhere, it's often from your own interior and isn't related to its ostensible outside referent
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:00 (three years ago) link
tr33ship has a whole thing on this; I think we debated it on the thread devoted to this topic (songs where the singer is supposedly coming off as a creep).
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:02 (three years ago) link
or actually I think his thing was about the song "Hospital"
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:03 (three years ago) link
Nah, that's borderline solipsism. I think the range of possible responses is so wide that we tend to assume it could be literally anything, but that's not quite true, strictly speaking. Music is more than a Rorschach test imo.
2xp
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:05 (three years ago) link
xpHospital discussion rings a bell.
I think where I differ with a lot of "I'm Straight" takes is when I first heard it I assumed the point of the song was to mock the narrator (the bit where he begrudgingly pretends to also like Hippie Johnny cracks me up, his neuroses are so transparent), and no amount of learning about Richman will ever dislodge that interpretation from my brain.
― rob, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:07 (three years ago) link
xp It's not nothin. And you already related all this to a hatred of "kiddie" music that could go back to before you're aware. Let's explore!
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:12 (three years ago) link
have always been impressed by how clearly the lyrics of Wouldn't It Be Nice convey the exact teenage emotion it’s going for. in that sense it is a good B-side to God Only Knows, which although more adult and complicated is also very direct and yearning
― Dan S, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:14 (three years ago) link
And you already related all this to a hatred of "kiddie" music that could go back to before you're aware.
Then it makes sense that I would react poorly to music that foregrounds tweenage themes, no? I'm bringing something to the table – my own biases – but that 'something' is a direct response to what's in the music, so I don't think it's fair to say that it comes out of nowhere. Apologies if I'm misreading you, but my 'gut reaction' to PS would be way more subjective if I were railing against its supposed timbral distortion and abrasiveness, say (now that would be bizarre!).
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:20 (three years ago) link
xxxp I've always thought of Richman as being pretty self-aware in those songs, in terms of what his "narrator" was expressing (NB: I know almost nothing about JR personally, or the degree to which he was/is really "like that"). I also just think mocking "hippie Johnny" is hilarious (the "I like him too..." line may be one of my all-time favorites).
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:26 (three years ago) link
My read of eephus's "your own interior" would include the biases you bring.
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:28 (three years ago) link
Yeah, but they added 'and isn't related to its ostensible outside referent', which I think is a step too far.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:30 (three years ago) link
It would be too far to say that's how you relate to all music, but not that it happened in this seemingly extreme case. It's a possible thing, no?
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:36 (three years ago) link
Is Genesis's Selling England By the Pound "upsell rock"?
― Wrong Screamed Barney (Neanderthal), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:39 (three years ago) link
It's technically possible, yes, but since I'm hardly the only person who feels this way about PS, and for very similar reasons, it seems highly unlikely. Look, it just sounds painfully corny to my ears – that's not an especially outlandish or surreal statement, I don't think.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:41 (three years ago) link
I have no issue. I think it has rightfully come down a peg from the turn of the century hyperbole. I think people were just trying to help you stop waking up in terror about how bad it is?
― maf you one two (maffew12), Monday, 1 February 2021 23:47 (three years ago) link
lol, and I do appreciate it!
Behind every challop itt is a cry for help.
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 February 2021 23:48 (three years ago) link
Haha, Neanderthal.
I think this is the most I've ever disagreed with pomenitul!
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:03 (three years ago) link
it’s too bad some of the lyrics are creepy because musically that modern lovers album is so righteous
― brimstead, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:03 (three years ago) link
I guess I feel the “creepy” lyrics are a feature, not a bug.
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:05 (three years ago) link
does richman’s later stuff have that same creepy vibe? it’s been a while since i listened to any of it but it seemed like he went off in a pretty different direction.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:07 (three years ago) link
yeah, jr's an eccentric guy — maybe it was intentional?
also have to agree that just the overall sound and sonic aesthetic of pet sounds is pretty schmaltzy. still decent tho.
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:09 (three years ago) link
Alas. I'm sure you've got a (to me) hair-raising musical challop up your sleeve (or two)!
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:10 (three years ago) link
xp I think the later stuff is where he became genuinely “childlike” (to circle back above); I haven’t heard much of it, though.To expand further on my earlier thought: I think the concept of eating health food at home suuuucks, but it’s interesting to hear a song’s narrator rationalize, “I don’t wanna hang out with your junky ass anyway!”
― excuse me while I fold my pants (morrisp), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:11 (three years ago) link
"wouldn't it be nice" is a queer anthem if you ask me.
yeah and as I said if a queer teenager in 2021 (e.g., my own personal offspring) hears that, then I am on board with that interpretation
I get that Brian himself was neither queer nor incel. But if these readings are gaining resonance 54-55 years onward, then maybe somethiing interesting is going on
But I also don't wanna join in boomer nostalgia-worship, that shit is played out like an eight-track
― pot sounds (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:21 (three years ago) link
Music is more than a Rorschach test imo.
How is this even up for discussion lol
― Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse), Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:26 (three years ago) link
A dial tone can be either The Tired Sounds of Stars of the Lid or London Calling depending on who's listening to it, y'know.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:28 (three years ago) link
music is entirely a Rorschach test
― Dan S, Tuesday, 2 February 2021 00:30 (three years ago) link