I remember when they played the Aragon in Chicago in the summer of '93, because Aragon was a Ticketmaster venue, they couldn't get around the service charges. So tickets were $5.30. I can't imagine how they were able to get Ticketbastard to agree to a 30 cent service charge, but they never played the Aragon again (opting for the far better-sounding Congress Theater in 1998...and weirdly, of the five Fugazi shows I saw, the two in Chicago were by far the weakest).
MacKaye has famously cited the Aragon show as the only Fugazi show that actually *cost* them money.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 7 January 2021 17:19 (three years ago) link
I think it's in here:
https://www.soundopinions.org/show/722
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 7 January 2021 17:20 (three years ago) link
Maybe they didn't lost money. Not from sound opinions but here's the story I found:
Now think about the fact that one of the skyrocketing costs of all the shows was security. I mean, there was a show we did in Chicago where the barricade made four times as much money as we did. The BARRICADE. And because you have a barricade, then you must have security people. You have to have security people - crowd management people - between the stage and the barricade. Because the barricade is a hole. So once you put a barricade in, then you have to staff the barricade. So it just costs more and more money, and this results in higher ticket prices. So these people that were just 'having fun' and just 'going off' - what they were really doing was they were perverting the peoples' music. They were creating a corporate climate. Do you follow?This is something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I mean, this barricade in Chicago - we played at this place called I think the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago, and at that time there was these 'T' barricades. Are you familiar with that? It was a giant room that held 5,000 people, and the barricade was shaped like a 'T,' so you had the horizontal bit in front of the stage, but then right in the middle there was a barricade that goes straight down dividing the 'pit,' so to speak -- or the 'crowd,' if you prefer -- into two. But then you had to bring in even more security people to be in the middle slot. And we argued and argued about it, but the fix was in. The security people were connected, insurance rates drove up costs, and everything was just creating this insane confluence of things that jacked the cost of the show higher and higher and higher. I couldn't get them to waive it, so finally I said that I insisted that we include in the budget 100 balloons and a can of helium. And the guy was like, "What? What are you talking about!?" And I said, "If you're gonna have such a draconian set-up, and since when people are entering the room that's the first thing they'll see, it sets a contrary tone. So as a form of protest and an absurdity, I would like to soften it by having balloons tied to it all the way around." They did it! But I was just spitting in the wind, because that night we just got banged. We had 3900 people at that show, and we made less than the guy that drove the forklift. That's the risk we took by working percentages.
This is something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I mean, this barricade in Chicago - we played at this place called I think the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago, and at that time there was these 'T' barricades. Are you familiar with that? It was a giant room that held 5,000 people, and the barricade was shaped like a 'T,' so you had the horizontal bit in front of the stage, but then right in the middle there was a barricade that goes straight down dividing the 'pit,' so to speak -- or the 'crowd,' if you prefer -- into two. But then you had to bring in even more security people to be in the middle slot. And we argued and argued about it, but the fix was in. The security people were connected, insurance rates drove up costs, and everything was just creating this insane confluence of things that jacked the cost of the show higher and higher and higher. I couldn't get them to waive it, so finally I said that I insisted that we include in the budget 100 balloons and a can of helium. And the guy was like, "What? What are you talking about!?" And I said, "If you're gonna have such a draconian set-up, and since when people are entering the room that's the first thing they'll see, it sets a contrary tone. So as a form of protest and an absurdity, I would like to soften it by having balloons tied to it all the way around." They did it! But I was just spitting in the wind, because that night we just got banged. We had 3900 people at that show, and we made less than the guy that drove the forklift. That's the risk we took by working percentages.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 7 January 2021 17:24 (three years ago) link
Didn't know that (nor do I have any recollection of the balloons)! I saw them again a few weeks later at the college I was attending in Vermont; it was VERY hastily organized, there were rumors that the band was pissed about the lack of publicity, the place was half full (maybe 250-300, if that)...and they apparently did better financially on that show than on a sold-out Aragon show.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 7 January 2021 17:33 (three years ago) link
And 3900 was "sold out" for Aragon shows until they started dangerously packing people in. I remember the '96 Sex Pistols show was shoulder-to-shoulder in the very back of the hall.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 7 January 2021 17:34 (three years ago) link
Left has already said they were just having some 'fun' with all of this. I knew Left must get some enjoyment out of life somehow somewhere sometime.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Thursday, 7 January 2021 17:51 (three years ago) link
what I wanted to take issue with was the implication that all this was something more/less than what it is, the idea (which is popular, maybe more popular at the time, in these scenes) that running an "ethical" business, doing benefits, not merchandising in an obvious way, adopting a vegan diet, etc... is not just a (better?) way of operating within the system but is actually substantially outside of or against it. this way of operating sometimes then becomes a standard of purity to hold others to, something they could also have achieved if they'd really cared (and that part is where the ideological distance from neoliberalism becomes less huge than it seems at first)
also, even if these things were really difficult and a lot of money was left on the table, I imagine it was easier for MacKaye to be as successful within his own terms as he was, than it would have been without his relatively privileged background (which is also where GoBW comes in... still no excuse, now or ever)
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 17:59 (three years ago) link
sorry to keep with the politics but the problem with the "bernie owning houses" thing is that it's raised by people who have no opposition to capitalism or to people owning as many houses as they like - as an attempt to own people who sometimes might be expected to have at least some. not that bernie (or ian) isn't really a capitalist or isn't really bourgeois, or that this kind of wealth is actually ok as long as you're woke enough
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:09 (three years ago) link
"this kind of wealth" - ROFLMAO
stay focused on the 1% dude, eyes on the prize
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:13 (three years ago) link
I've seen enough.... Ian MacKaye is Elon Musk.
― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:18 (three years ago) link
Not even the richest DC punk rocker .
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:22 (three years ago) link
sorry in what sense is this not wealth. I suppose he's less rich than a few guys
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:30 (three years ago) link
dude I'm probably worth $1 mil on paper and I have $2K in the bank and no retirement
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:32 (three years ago) link
(to be fair >50% of that is my wife)
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:33 (three years ago) link
upper middle class =! the 1%
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:34 (three years ago) link
I don't really understand the meaning of "ok" in that sentence. Socialism isn't kashrut, it's not a series of laws about what are "ok" individual choices.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:34 (three years ago) link
(putting aside that one is his vermont residence, one is his DC residence -- something every member of congress needs -- and one is I believe a lake house his wife inherited from her parents. It's not like they're deliberately accumulating properties)
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:35 (three years ago) link
"socialism" is full of normative judgments (eg exploitation is basically a bad thing), some of the theory crowd has always been a bit in denial about this
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:48 (three years ago) link
so the defensiveness is really not necessary and there is not really an "ok" level of accumulation including what I engage in. I suppose there are some fundamental differences of opinion about what constitutes being rich. the fact that someone is a capitalist (as in "I've got my own business") or that they own more property than most people ever will should not be controversial though
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:53 (three years ago) link
lol are you a Maoist?
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:56 (three years ago) link
that's like one step away from Cultural Revolution shit IMHO
THE LOCAL SHOPKEEPER IS THE ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:57 (three years ago) link
Home ownership in America is somewhere around 65%.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:57 (three years ago) link
And a home bought in 1981 or whenever in what has since become one of the most valuable real estate markets in the country is going to go way up, even if you never so much as mowed the grass.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 7 January 2021 18:59 (three years ago) link
thing is though, dischord just kind of *happened* like they put out their own 45s and then were like oh we should put out our friend's band and oh cool we broke even, so put out some more stuff and hey cool we made some money let's put out some more recordsthe idea that it was some kind of plan to be a capitalist and not just putting out music they thought should be heard that no one would put out - AND pre-internet when you had to get things manufactured and distribute physical products - seems ahistorical and unfair
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:02 (three years ago) link
and like you actually have to live somewhere, is owning a home morally wrong when the only option is to participate in the rental market? putting money in the hands of some real estate company?
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:04 (three years ago) link
Not everyone lives in America, believe it or not.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:08 (three years ago) link
To explain Left's perspective, not Ian Mackaye's living arrangements.
I'm not a marxist-leninist but business owners are capitalists in the most literal descriptive sense and it's true that property ownership is a kind of wealth a lot of people won't ever see. I don't know what's so outrageous, is this still about mackaye or something else
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:11 (three years ago) link
well now that you've downgraded your blanket judgement from "most" to "a lot" I'd say I'm good
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:13 (three years ago) link
again this is like a pragmatist vs idealist debate, like a lot of ILX
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:14 (three years ago) link
yeah if I cared about more than dreaming I would get shit done, anyone can do it as long as they work hard enough and understand that in the real world you have to cut deals
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:20 (three years ago) link
being white / male with a college degree from that generation pretty much guarantees you this kind of net worth
― dean bad (map), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:23 (three years ago) link
guilty of being (rich) white (male)
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:25 (three years ago) link
(from that generation)
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:27 (three years ago) link
these new song titles for the deluxe reissue lay it on a bit thick imho
― stylish but illegal (Simon H.), Thursday, 7 January 2021 19:33 (three years ago) link
Anyone with a net worth of a million bucks or more (and MacKaye is probably significantly ahead of that given his career and age) is in fairly rarified air. The median net worth even for Boomers is like $200k and that’s all tied up in their home equity.
It’s a big who cares here but weird to dismiss a rich guy being rich with some hand waving ‘well evvvvvverybody is like that.’
― Joe Biden Stan Account (milo z), Thursday, 7 January 2021 20:20 (three years ago) link
lol Simon
I suppose there are some fundamental differences of opinion about what constitutes being rich.
agreed
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Thursday, 7 January 2021 20:24 (three years ago) link
what is the right amount of money to have?I guess to me he's like "normal people rich" as opposed to like CEOs of big companies or investment dudes like my job before this was at a small PR firm, like 11 employees including the owners, they are my reference for normal ppl rich
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 7 January 2021 20:28 (three years ago) link
some good and interesting takes here but i'll still take the average imperfect and often ineffectual dyed-in-the-wool-cap MRR-style 90s leftist punk - who at least had their hearts and brains in the right place - over their modern counterpart who decries capitalism, corporatization, and wealth inequality while simultaneously sucking at the teet of Netflix, Spotify, Amazon, and Twitter
― Paul Ponzi, Friday, 8 January 2021 00:24 (three years ago) link
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1ZVPOsX0AACj17.jpg
― your passion oozzes from the (ultros ultros-ghali), Friday, 8 January 2021 00:40 (three years ago) link
Rich vs wealthy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA4ufNSE7l0
― Van Horn Street, Friday, 8 January 2021 00:57 (three years ago) link
thing is though, dischord just kind of *happened* like they put out their own 45s and then were like oh we should put out our friend's band and oh cool we broke even, so put out some more stuff and hey cool we made some money let's put out some more records
the idea that it was some kind of plan to be a capitalist and not just putting out music they thought should be heard that no one would put out - AND pre-internet when you had to get things manufactured and distribute physical products - seems ahistorical and unfair
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:02 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:04 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
otm and otm.
I probably spent something like 100$ on Fugazi/Dischord stuff over the past 10 years (with a 15% sales taxe, that's 15 for my two level of governments). That's why he has the net worth he does, that's pretty much it. I don't think there is anything sinister with that sort of transactions.
― Van Horn Street, Friday, 8 January 2021 01:05 (three years ago) link
How would you all rate dischord in the pantheon of record labels just in terms of shipping product, keeping things in stock, paying people what they're owed on time, etc...?
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 8 January 2021 01:23 (three years ago) link
A+ from all accounts
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Friday, 8 January 2021 01:27 (three years ago) link
I listened to the 3hr Bandsplain episode on Fugazi on a recent long drive. I didn't learn a huge amount but Brandon Stosuy is good company and of course the tunes were great. Aside, but this daft Britisher is constantly surprised that Guy's name is pronounced (unvoiced G) Gee Pi-CHOT-oh.
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Thursday, 9 September 2021 13:32 (two years ago) link
Ha. This American living in DC area sometimes heard his last name pronounced multiple ways
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:35 (two years ago) link
I'm reading the 33 1/3 In On the Kill Taker and it's really good. I've had a day listening to lots of Egg Hunt and Rites of Spring. My god what a talented scene.
Has anyone dipped into the live archive? I've not and was hoping someone would know where to start...
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Saturday, 18 September 2021 20:31 (two years ago) link
This blog may help.
― JRN, Saturday, 18 September 2021 21:43 (two years ago) link
Perfect, cheers.
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Sunday, 19 September 2021 08:55 (two years ago) link