I liked the piece he conducted.
― They sold me a dream of Christmas (Sund4r), Monday, 21 December 2020 00:25 (three years ago) link
I was gonna say an unfunny Weird Al
That exchange is a great example of something I hate about Zappa. "We did this song or type of music just to prove how stupid it is." OK, Frank, but if you're going to do it anyway, why not write in that mode and show how good it could be in the right hands?
maybe he's not the right hands? people talk about him the same way they talk about Aphex Twin, as though he could have pumped out a hundred tracks like "Peaches en Regalia" or "Oh No" or "Watermelon in Easter Hay" if he wanted to, but saw "giving the people what they want" as a character flaw. when I hear something like "Dancin' Fool" it's like...too interesting to be a pisstake, but he can't figure out how to reconcile the dumb parts with the cool musical bits, and he can't make the tune likeable because he's so incredibly unfunny. he was shooting for *something* great but the tune itself just hints at what it is.
― frogbs, Monday, 21 December 2020 00:28 (three years ago) link
And I mean going rogue on a satirical live comedy show and satirizing its scripted nature is classic. What, we're supposed to revere Lorne Michaels and disco now? xp
― They sold me a dream of Christmas (Sund4r), Monday, 21 December 2020 00:35 (three years ago) link
Sund4r please.
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 00:58 (three years ago) link
Guy covering up for his inability to act by speaking his cue cards in quotes doesn't strike me as Andy Kaufman level stuff, sorry. And stiff white dude making fun of disco dancing got old at some point, can't remember exactly when. He's not the greatest dancer himself, I wonder why. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDwutKpVyas
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 01:01 (three years ago) link
Anyway, this thread did remind me to practise my rhythm changes today.
― They sold me a dream of Christmas (Sund4r), Monday, 21 December 2020 01:02 (three years ago) link
Anyway, sorry, can't give my full attention to this thread, boring myself to tears listening to another bunch of dire dudes running around the cycle of fifths with the ii-V-I's. Been done to death.
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 01:03 (three years ago) link
lol
― They sold me a dream of Christmas (Sund4r), Monday, 21 December 2020 01:04 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu6s9t0iFSg
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 01:06 (three years ago) link
Zappa did approve of Little Deuce Coupe by the Beach Boys, because it uses a V-ii-I progression, thus confounding centuries of White Music.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 21 December 2020 01:14 (three years ago) link
Lol
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 01:23 (three years ago) link
One thing about that SNL clip, I forgot how thin and sharply angled he was, he’s like the inspiration for Waluigi
― frogbs, Monday, 21 December 2020 01:42 (three years ago) link
lol, he totally looks like Waluigi
maybe he's not the right hands?
Exactly, that was my point: he's not. If you think this kind of music is so shitty, Frank, but you're going to do it anyway, then why do it "bad" on purpose, as an obnoxious joke, and not do it better, because you are clearly a next level artist? Because you can't. So why bother with this fish in a barrel bullshit?
And yeah, if he were actually funny he could be forgiven for a lot of his bullshit, but Zappa is not funny.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 01:57 (three years ago) link
For what it's worth, I find there's a strong correlation between "songs where Zappa is trying to be funny, and I agree it's funny" and "songs where Zappa is trying to be funny that I enjoy as music".
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 21 December 2020 02:05 (three years ago) link
.
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 02:08 (three years ago) link
!
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 21 December 2020 02:15 (three years ago) link
🎃 🥸
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 02:33 (three years ago) link
I like a lot of Zappa but if it all disappeared I'd really only miss Peaches En Regalia and Trouble Every Day
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 December 2020 02:46 (three years ago) link
In the end, it doesn't matter whether or not Zappa has the best musicians playing "Dancin' Fool," the question is if it's any better than "Disco Duck." And the answer is no.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 02:50 (three years ago) link
This is the best Zappa, when he just sits down and watches Vinnie solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ZUO79il6A
Unless you hate drum solos, in which case it is also bad.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 02:55 (three years ago) link
B-b-but does Vinnie eat sushi during that solo?
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 02:57 (three years ago) link
lol I think he needs two hands for this solo. Sushi is just for the easy one-handed Zappa chart stuff.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 03:00 (three years ago) link
It's not sushi, but here he is effortlessly breaking down a tricky Sting groove as he's playing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwmCeon6aPo
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 03:05 (three years ago) link
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, December 20, 2020 7:46 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
would add "village of the sun" to this
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:14 (three years ago) link
Village of the Sun has quite an affectionate lyric.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 21 December 2020 03:24 (three years ago) link
And I mean going rogue on a satirical live comedy show and satirizing its scripted nature is classic.
Funny that James Redd brought up Andy Kaufman, because this is what I thought of instantly. (And I fucking hate(d) Andy Kaufman's whole thing too. "Conceptual comedy" where the concept is "you're stupid for laughing"? None for me, thanks.)
― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:29 (three years ago) link
I liked Andy Kaufman, maybe because I first saw him with Dick Van Dyke and because of the Elvis thing, but yeah.
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:34 (three years ago) link
Still, Kaufman (as much as I know of him) often seemed to relish the absurdity of it, of being on stage doing anything. There's never that queasy mix of self-regard and self-loathing that creeps all through Zappa's stuff.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 03:34 (three years ago) link
I feel like there's a joy to Kaufman, things like the Mighty Mouse here I come to save the day sketch
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:37 (three years ago) link
This Kauffman talk is making me wish there was a vid of Orson Welles' rhapsodizing about "Dong Work For Yuda"
"...this Holy Fool, Bald-Headed John, simultaneously above and below his persecutors..."
― "what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:40 (three years ago) link
There's also a feeling, at his most confrontational or novel, that Kaufman *is* subversive, whereas Zappa ultimately is not.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 03:43 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHpme0ZeHdUMerry Christmas!
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:47 (three years ago) link
https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_day_andy_kaufman_mesmerized_dick_van_dyke_with_congas_and_tears
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:56 (three years ago) link
I must have seen him before Dick Van Dyke though, since I stayed up to watch the SNL premiere.
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 03:58 (three years ago) link
Dick Van Dyke gets it.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 04:04 (three years ago) link
The way he would interrupt the show was similar to stuff that would often happen to guest stars on The Muppet Show.
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 04:06 (three years ago) link
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/5/5b/Tonyclifton.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/300?cb=20200418211649
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 December 2020 04:16 (three years ago) link
(That's my high concept joke, lol)
god, andy kaufman was so deeply funny and a consummate showman. lol at the idea that frank zappa's thing was even remotely similar -- just a creep who gets off on shitting on other people's enjoyment. zappa's resentment was so transparently a function of self-consciousness about his musical (and other) shortcomings -- and moreover he was so full of shit when he tried to talk about his "ideas" (musical, political, or otherwise) -- that it's embarrassing to witness. i just don't have any time for this guy anymore
― budo jeru, Monday, 21 December 2020 10:33 (three years ago) link
I think "Any Way the Wind Blows" is the best thing he ever wrote.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Monday, 21 December 2020 11:48 (three years ago) link
budo jeru OTMFM. I’m not a massive Kaufman fan, but I never got even the slightest whiff of Zappa’s “everyone is stupid except me” smug horseshit from Andy’s work.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 21 December 2020 13:05 (three years ago) link
Does Zappa have any cultural cachet nowadays, other than as some kind of hippie-era relic? He was influencing people up until the 80s/90s (Weird Al, Ween, Primus, Mr Bungle, Butthole Surfers all show some level of similarity), but now? Maybe the whole post-modern/cut-up aesthetic can be traced back to him bringing the concepts into rock/pop music, but that's more like cultural osmosis.
― that heat (Matt #2), Monday, 21 December 2020 13:17 (three years ago) link
I think he does, I get the feeling people are more open to complex and technical music than they were in the 80s and 90s, hence specific user imago and all his microtonal metal nonsense par example.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Monday, 21 December 2020 13:29 (three years ago) link
The Cardiacs, all that stuff.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Monday, 21 December 2020 13:31 (three years ago) link
Yeah I just think the snarky humour might have dated badly for The Kids. I'll ask my nephew! Mid-20s, Devin Townshend and Steven Wilson fan. His answer shall be taken as gospel.
― that heat (Matt #2), Monday, 21 December 2020 13:37 (three years ago) link
Zappa absolutely influenced that other ILM nemesis, Ariel Pink.
― Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Monday, 21 December 2020 14:29 (three years ago) link
I'm wondering what the Zappa haters think of bands like Jethro Tull and Devo, who were similarly criticized in contemporary reviews for being contemptuous of their audiences, parodying music that was (supposedly) superior to their own, and general self-satisfaction.
One difference is that Zappa-as-a-person and his public statements loom larger than things that Ian Anderson or Devo said in some interview.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 21 December 2020 15:45 (three years ago) link
Don't see much of a comparison there, tbh
― Whamagideon Time (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 December 2020 16:05 (three years ago) link
I think someone who experienced Zappa during the first flush, 1967 to 1971 or thereabouts should weigh in re: the following… it seems he was if not the first but surely among the first and certainly the most prominent figure to proclaim "everything sucks, everyone is corrupt, the mainstream is corny, and even the so called underground is charlatn-y bullshit." this must have been bracing and revelatory in the years I mentioned above, but I and likely most of the people on this thread never knew a time when such a critique was not very nearly a default setting, and thus not particularly revolutionary, bold, etc…
― veronica moser, Monday, 21 December 2020 16:08 (three years ago) link
(xp) A lot of early Devo definitely has a similar kind of aggressive nerd vibe as Zappa, it's also very misogynistic.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Monday, 21 December 2020 16:12 (three years ago) link