Poll: Bandwagonesque v. Nevermind v. Loveless

axl and kurt had a lot in common.

But still seemed to hate each other in the early 90s.

kurt just got the punk thing wrong, really. and so did axl. they didn't know how to do it right.

i was nine years old when kurt offed himself btw. this may be why i don't have much feeling on the "cultural impact" of nirvana. i liked nirvana & pearl jam at the same time i liked ace of base & alanis.

kurt:us punk::axl:uk punk

xxxp Why would I say teenagers didn't respond to Poison, GnR, etc, when several million clearly did (and at least as many girls as boys, fwiw)?

I mean they responded to it AS a gender role/envelope-pushing thing when they didn't w/ Poison, which you kept wondering aloud about

kurt and axl both wanted to be punk as fuck AND wildly popular. which will fuck you up in a big way.

having cake + eating it too.

http://www.kurtcobainnews.com/rolling_stones_kurt_cobain_nirvana_cover.jpg

get it, we are businessmen now. no, really, we are. but....no, we aren't, but...oh ironing generation you've got me all bugaboo.

http://images.wolfgangsvault.com/images/catalog/detail/RS674-RS.jpg

still can't believe butt-head lost to beavis!

"Liz Phair: Babe in Boyland"

Dr. Dre > Meat Loaf seems like an odd winner/loser pairing.

Cypress Hill > Suede is my personal fave

seriously Cypress Hill/Suede what? I think I bought that issue ... I forget what the criteria were lofting beavis into the winner's circle.

Oh, come on. Beavis so >>>>>>>>>>>> Butt head.

yeah totally, that's the soundest decision in that whole thing

"Janet Jackson >>> Michael Bolton" = Rumble in the Jungle type shit here.

Janet would tear that apart that clown limb from limb.

Eighteen years later, this song still makes me smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjMQk42pTL0

(From a 1994 concert).

This thread was almost good, and of course it has to turn into yet another argument about Nirvana's impact.. It's sooooo tired..

Great video of "The Concept" btw. I think I made the right choice.

Every discussion on "Bandwagonesque" here seemed to be of the "It was the first album we listened to together"

but I do have to say...

yep: It was the first album we listened to together

Particularly as she did say the line about not doing drugs but does the pill, and had never heard the song before.

Oh yeah.. the Beavis And Butthead thing was that it was voted for both "Best TV Show" and "Worst TV Show"

Beavis has a bit more depth.. He's the more emo of the 2. Butthead was a bit more sure of himself.

I don't get what showing Nirvana's RS covers is supposed to prove about anything.. That they weren't punk? Who cares.

I was 19 when all these albums came out, and I was a rabid fan of all three bands prior to these releases.

At the time, I would have rated Nevermind first. I bet there were times where Bandwagonesque took first. I had discovered Big Star the year before, and then in early 91, Ryko put out Sister Lovers, Big Star Live, and Chris Bell's I Am The Cosmos. Oh, and a power pop friend had turned me onto Badfinger. So I was soaked in Big Star and Badfinger, and TFC came along. That was revelatory. New bands making that kind of wistful, sparkly power pop, with a fuzzy edge.

I dug Loveless, but my love for it blossomed over the years. I listen to it way more these days then I did back then. And Bandwagonesque was eventually eclipsed by Grand Prix and Songs From Northern Britain. SFNB is one of my all-time favorite albums.

Yeah, it's curious to see Bandwagonesque competing against the critical and commercial high water marks of these other bands' career when it is not even close to being the best TFC album.

Depends on where you're coming from. I agree that they got a lot better later on. But there are also those who prefer their "dirtier" early sound to the cleaner powerpop sound of "Grand Prix" and "Songs From Northern Britain".

I made Bandwagonesque an option because some critics were scratching their heads over why it -- rather than Nevermind -- was chosen by SPIN Magazine as the No. 1 album of 1991. I'm not sure I would compare Teenage Fanclub's work, feel or aesthetic with Nirvana's otherwise (I love them both, but they're going for different things). I included Loveless as an option when I realized -- based on the Stylus article cited in the original post -- that it was from 1991 also, and I thought "Wow, you can't ignore that disc in this discussion."

Since then, a few more albums -- notably Primal Scream's and Talk Talk's 1991 discs -- were mentioned that I think could have also been included. My bad on those, I guess.

(xp)

weird, I gave up on TFC after Thirteen (which is okay, great in spots but fairly weak in others) - had no idea their later output was so well-regarded. Or is that just a UK thing...

you sound suspicious...

oh its just a tic of my listening habits - when I've been following an active band since their inception and they make a bad album, its really rare that they regain my interest (it does happen but over the years I've noticed its kinda rare and I'm a rather unforgiving bastard who doesn't expect bands to recover once they've started to slip)

Not from UK, and yeah, Grand Prix is much better than 13.

But there are also those who prefer their "dirtier" early sound to the cleaner powerpop sound of "Grand Prix" and "Songs From Northern Britain".

I get the sense that Spin/RS/MTV were grasping blindly away at things to anoint prior to grunge-a-mania, and Teenage Fanclub were beneficiaries of this 'next big thing' confusion. Wasn't this an era where Jason Priestly had tastemaker status?

"yeah, kurt in the wedding dress on headbangers ball was just dumb. like he thought it was a big deal to do it. it wasn't even funny. i mean, by then, even my brother had been wearing dresses on stage for years. maybe his fans thought it was radical though. again, the age thing."

No, it was hilarious, I think you're forgetting how monumentally ugly that dress was.
http://www.mtv.com/bands/n/nirvana/thumbnails/mtv_25/mtv_25_nirvana_140x105.jpg

mean, by then, even my brother had been wearing dresses on stage for years

men have been wearing dresses onstage since the dawn of entertainment, doesn't mean it can't still be funny

Voted Nirvana on grounds of MBV being overrated and Teenage Fanclub being a made-up band.

did somebody already comment on the weird cover connection between nevermind and bandwagonesque? the us-dollar. i like that teenage fanclub don't show it, they just put the sign on the sack. one meta point to them. nirvana have a real dollar note floating in the water there. what is it doing there? with the thread attached to it it looks like a bait for the young boy. will he bite it? he doesn't seem to be too interested.

It's worth mentioning that neither Smells Like Teen Spirit or Nevermind reached number one in the US until January 1992, probably about two months after the Spin list was put together. Smells Like Teen Spirit was nominated for the Grammy for best song in 1993. The supposed huge cultural impact of the album hadn't been felt or defined yet.

Just out of interest, here's the NME singles list for 1991 (for albums they had Nirvana at #1, TFC at #2, Screamadelica at #3 and Loveless at #9):

1. Higher than the sun - Primal Scream
2. Justified & ancient - The KLF
3. Loosing my religion - REM
4. Starsign - Teenage Fanclub
5. The concept - Teenage Fanclub
6. Get the message - Electronic
7. Smell like teen spirit - Nirvana
8. Unfinished sympathy - Massive Attack
9. Pearl - Chapterhouse
10.Size of a cow - The Wonder Stuff

lol chapterhouse

It's an outrage that Pearl by Chapterhouse is rated above Size of a Cow!

it has this slight noisy twist, it has an extra sonic layer behind the harmonies.

To me, that is what their later albums have. No, not a slight noisy twist, but an extra sonic layer in some extra details and not to mention a lot of great stereo effects.

"men have been wearing dresses onstage since the dawn of entertainment, doesn't mean it can't still be funny"

yes, of course, i just thought that kurt wasn't that funny. or good at wacky gestures or punk "statements". which is why i put the rolling stone cover up. cuz the corporate magazine t-shirt thing was just soooo lame.

wtf is going on in the last three seconds of that tfc clip

i actually like the old people arguing about nirvana aspect of this thread and wish ppl would stop complaining about it

re: the impact of the dress thing: all the ppl i knew in high school who liked this band maintained a sort of deliberate blind spot about that sort of behaviour, because it was a bit gay, and they couldn't be having with that

the corporate magazine t-shirt thing was just soooo lame.

True, but I kind of like his hair and sunglasses in that picture. (By the way, I'm not as convinced as Scott that either Kurdt or W.Axel did punk "wrong." I'm honestly not even sure what that means; they did punk righter than lots of supposed "real" punk and hardcore bands in the '80s/'90s/'00s who sold way less records, but then I'd say that about Michael Jackson, too. Not entirely convinced either Nirvana or Guns N Roses were punk rock bands per se, either. Nirvana were almost more a powerpop group, to be honest, at least when they were at their best. And GnR at their best played hard funky rock. But they both had a lot of self-and-passersby-destructive punk-like emotion and paranoia etc in their songs.)

"yes, of course, i just thought that kurt wasn't that funny."
90s guitar rock comedy-off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJk2RNlj8EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-j31YoEeRU

when I've been following an active band since their inception and they make a bad album, its really rare that they regain my interest...I'm a rather unforgiving bastard who doesn't expect bands to recover once they've started to slip

Strangely, this is something that Shakey and I apparently actually have in common. (For instance, I basically had zero interest in hearing Chinese Democracy last year. And when I finally got around to it, it just confirmed my skepticism.)

"By the way, I'm not as convinced as Scott that either Kurdt or W.Axel did punk "wrong."

i don't mean musically. i think they were both good pop stars who made good music. i mean publically. they were both so self-conscious and it used to embarrass me when they would make "punk" gestures or statements or act like they didn't give a fuck or whatever when it was SO obvious that they really did care. about their image and how they were viewed.

slash was way punk though.

I thought it was general consensus that Duff was the only member with punk cred in GNR.

Adler was the only one with funk cred, though.

But Scott, lots of punks (from the Stooges and Dolls and Pistols and Ramones and Clash and Black Flag and GG Allin and Bikini Kill on) totally self-conscoiously cared about their image and how they were viewed. Still not understanding how that's not punk. (Though I'm sort of playing devil's advocate, since I totally agree with you about their public gestures often being embarrassments.)