Poll: Bandwagonesque v. Nevermind v. Loveless

http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/bastille-stormed.jpg

Hey I grew up on a fucking goat farm in rural Oregon and was a huge fan of Bleach and Birthday Party and Big Black and what have you. If it takes an MTV video or SNL to make you pay attention... (we had no cable access where I lived, I just asked a lot of questions and went to the library).

I was a freshmen in college when Nevermind hit and I'd been anticipating it madly for several years. Saw Nirvana twice previously, opening for Sonic Youth in '90 and Dinosaur earlier in '91. But by the time Nevermind was released, songs like Enter Sandman had made me question everything these bands were up to.

"Nevermind is thin? It sounds quite beefy to me, especially in comparison to, say, In Utero."

Umm... I don't even know what to say to this. Listen to the rhythm section on both records and get back to me.

Also 1991

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3244/2507911377_cf32745a55.jpg?v=0

the tipping point into ridiculousness comes when you're holding a cup of shitty beer, talking to the homecoming king starting linebacker or whatever about how he really relates to eddie

xpost

And this!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Iu3QYLD0w4M/SCJDmZLtZ6I/AAAAAAAAAkM/VX1XmbP_SQc/s320/Lysol.jpg

u mean this guy right

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/AsakuraHao2004/eddie_satan.jpg xp

musically they weren't that big a departure from the rock and metal that a lot of the kids were into, so that it was more approachable/appealing. Nirvana were dudely enough, so that the emotional vulnerability and weirdness wasn't written off as "faggy" - unlike Morrissey or The Cure or Depeche Mode.

But what about Faith No More and Jane's Addiction and Living Colour and King's X (all weird beatniky metallic bands who preceded Nirvana onto MTV, though maybe none of them were as ubiquitous as "Teen Spirit" wound up being in late '91) -- were none of them dudely enough either? (Thing that always bugs me the most about the whole "sea change" legend is the "killing off of hair metal" myth -- by '90 or '91, hair metal was pretty much already off MTV, give or take an isolated Extreme ballad or two. No wonder the biz needed a new kind of loud rock to market -- there was a major void to fill.)

I really have to go look through the shelves but my honest recollection of fave release of '91 was this one:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000018VT.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

And kinda shocked no one has mentioned this yet (not that many of us heard this until a few years later):

http://metal-blogs.com/blackiss/files/2007/12/2282.jpg

The last two hair metal hits I remember getting mad rotation in the late '91/early '92 era were Mr. Big's "To Be With You" and Firehouse's "Love of a Lifetime." I guess Ugly Kid Joe count too.

But what about Faith No More and Jane's Addiction and Living Colour

I think they definitely paved the way for Nirvana ... but I guess what I was trying to get at was the acceptance of weirdness/emotional vulnerability that Nirvana prompted. The aforementioned bands were definitely dudely but didn't really question the average high school boy's rules about masculinity.

ian, if only

Hmm...I'm gay, and Nirvana didn't make me question masculinity at all. Not a jot. I'm not trashing your experiences; they just weren't mind. Buying the Pet Shop Boys' Behaviour in spring '91 and Suede the next year stirred something more ominous than anything from the Pacific Northwest.

mind = mine

i've talked about this before, but the classic rock radio station i listened to at work in 91/92 had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the grunge era. they held out for as long as they could until it became impossible NOT to play the stuff. i think they were really worried that they would lose their older dude two for tuesday crowd if they went grunge. but when they did switch, it was literally all grunge all the time. they went from stubbornly playing kiss's "domino", mr.big, jackyl, brother cane, sass jordan, and def leppard to nirvana, temple of the dog, pearl jam, etc. along with red hot chili peppers and other nu-rock hits.

emotional vulnerability that Nirvana prompted. The aforementioned bands were definitely dudely but didn't really question the average high school boy's rules about masculinity

Thing is, hair metal bands (at least at first) dressed like girls. Poison were total drag queens with pink guitars, until they chickened out. And power ballads had emotional vulnerability up the wazoo -- especially say "Sweet Child O' Mine," and Axl was pretty girly in his own right. So I've never gotten how that was such a humongous change, either; why hadn't Poison made the average high school boy question rules about masculinity already? (Hell, Sylvester was supposedly a big fan of that band!)

no, alfred, i think the point was that listening to nirvana was a way for straight boys to be emo without getting beaten up. kinda like def leppard were before them.

xh-post

xp - what I meant by "question masculinity" was basically saying a guy can be cool and be "in touch with his feelings," as opposed to acting like a macho jock.

xxp what scott said.

yeah but the glammy hair bands were all about getting laid and chicks digging the way they looked, and some of them, especially Axl, liked to say "faggot" a lot -- Kurt wore a dress onstage and slipped things like "everyone is gay" and "rape me" into his songs that were a little more ambiguous, which isn't in itself a huge deal but there was definitely a different attitude being put forth

xpost

yet Axl also loved the Pet Shop Boys, would drive around in a limousine with the stereo blasting "Being Boring," and backstage at a show told Neil Tennant that he'd love to write with them sometime. That's just our Axl.

Just because it wasn't my experience, I still understand that Nirvana had this effect on a lot of people. Thriller was an event for me. Smells Like Teen Spirit was a big deal for another (even my) generation. It's all part of believing that you're part of the myth. I just knew too much so it couldn't affect me the same way. I don't discount its importance to the culture at large. I just deny that it's musically better than a lot of other things going on before, during, or afterwards.

yeah, plus Axl loved Elton and Freddie...guy had issues, definitely.

had issues maybe, but if g'n'r are one of the most traditionally macho bands i can think of.

xp Axl lived in LA. I think he loved these people because they were famous.

don't know where i was going with that. scratch the 'if.'

xp I was always kinda confused by the way the hair metal bands dressed. Their songs showed such little respect for women, I couldn't understand why they were dressing like them.

yet Axl also loved the Pet Shop Boys, would drive around in a limousine with the stereo blasting "Being Boring," and backstage at a show told Neil Tennant that he'd love to write with them sometime. That's just our Axl.

My favorite Nirvana moment: When Dave Grohl screamed over-and-over into the mike, at the end of Nirvana's ferocious set at the MTV Music Awards, "Hi, Axl! Hey, Axl! Hi, Axl!" Don't know why his juvenile taunting made such an impression on the 22 year old me, but it did (maybe because I wanted to see a GnR/Nirvana fistfight on the VMA stage).

Apropos of nothing, obv.

king's x were on mtv?

i remember seeing the video for "Black Flag" a lot between airings of "Evenflow" and "Come As You Are," believe it or not.

Kurt wore a dress onstage

A lot more heavyhandedly/grandstandingly than Poison wore their frocks and makeup in 1987, at least to my eyes. He looked like he was trying to make a point or something. They looked like they were doing it because it was fun, and because it felt good.

king's x were on mtv?

"Over My Head" was on a lot, in 1989/90. (And Pinnick was a gay black Christian, right? Not sure whether he was closeted then or not, though.)

Axl also a major George Michael fan back then, btw.

Also don't remotely understand how Axl could be seen as "traditionally macho." He sang like a girl, danced like a girl, wrote love poems like a girl.

so you're asking why millions of teenagers responded to heavyhanded grandstanding gestures towards questioning gender roles better than a bunch of effeminate but ultimately macho-minded peacocking?

yeah, kurt in the wedding dress on headbangers ball was just dumb. like he thought it was a big deal to do it. it wasn't even funny. i mean, by then, even my brother had been wearing dresses on stage for years. maybe his fans thought it was radical though. again, the age thing.

...and apparently Axl used to get called "faggot" himself plenty back in Lafeyette, Indiana for liking Devo and the Sex Pistols etc. so much. (So yeah, he had issues. No argument there.)

I agree that it seems lame now and it seemed lame to me then, too. I'm just saying, I knew straight guys who'd wear dresses to school as a stunt or a way to seem 'different' after that. xpost

axl and kurt had a lot in common.

mbv FTW.

axl and kurt had a lot in common.

But still seemed to hate each other in the early 90s.

kurt just got the punk thing wrong, really. and so did axl. they didn't know how to do it right.

i was nine years old when kurt offed himself btw. this may be why i don't have much feeling on the "cultural impact" of nirvana. i liked nirvana & pearl jam at the same time i liked ace of base & alanis.

kurt:us punk::axl:uk punk

xxxp Why would I say teenagers didn't respond to Poison, GnR, etc, when several million clearly did (and at least as many girls as boys, fwiw)?

I mean they responded to it AS a gender role/envelope-pushing thing when they didn't w/ Poison, which you kept wondering aloud about

kurt and axl both wanted to be punk as fuck AND wildly popular. which will fuck you up in a big way.

having cake + eating it too.

http://www.kurtcobainnews.com/rolling_stones_kurt_cobain_nirvana_cover.jpg

get it, we are businessmen now. no, really, we are. but....no, we aren't, but...oh ironing generation you've got me all bugaboo.

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still can't believe butt-head lost to beavis!

"Liz Phair: Babe in Boyland"