robbie has barely played live in 45 years; he appeared on SNL in 87 to promote the first album, was at some Stratocaster fest in europe with other big shots in the 90s, and he showed up and played (not very well) "Don't Do it" at one of those Last Waltz reconstructions in Nashville with one of those neo-Outlaw guys (jamey Johnson?) with Don Was on bass. He has never toured for one of his records… when someone way upthread said he doesn't seem "charming," it's more that he seems too charming… he's a HUGE schmoozer, an oily/slick networker; one would think for the past 40 years or so, Dylan would prefer the company of the other guys in the Band… and in terms of his playing, it seems like it was him and Bloomfield in the U.S. and Canada that you could put in the mid 60s white blues company of EC, Beck, Peter green… and it is especially unusual in that doc that Domninique, from whom he has been divorced for at least 35 years, is a character witness (my god is she gorgeous)…
as it've said before, maybe on this thread, the 2016 book, as well as the doc and the 2005 box set, has him trying to clear his name and to go over his version of the history of the band over and over again… he doesn't like to say that the other guys got back together… in any case, his life after the Last Waltz would be pretty fucking interesting to hear about… I hope he lets go of this shit now and moves on to the events of the last 45 goddamn years
― veronica moser, Friday, 18 September 2020 20:37 (four years ago) link
Watching the Once Were Brothers now. So far pretty conventional– Jann Wenner is one of the talking heads!– unlike, say, the Other Music doc.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 September 2020 23:36 (four years ago) link
Okay, things just got a little interesting when Ronnie Hawkins showed up with teenage Levon in tow.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 September 2020 23:37 (four years ago) link
Hadn't known about this Geffen/Asylum interlude. Hadn't know that John P Hammond had a different middle initial from his father John H. Hammond. The way John P. Hammond tells the story, Dylan wanted the whole Band right away but I thought there was another version where he at first he only wanted Robbie but Robbie held out and said "Levon's got to come too" (and maybe all the rest of the guys as well) but I don't remember where I heard that.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:01 (four years ago) link
For that Forest Hills show Dylan did in 65 the band was Robbie, Levon, Al Kooper and Harvey Brooks. Thought this was some sort of tryout for Robbie and Levon.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:03 (four years ago) link
Okay, the longer version of this last thing is in Robbie's book.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:40 (four years ago) link
Watched all the credits roll and saw that Rob Bowman got one which is good, that guy is pretty thorough.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:41 (four years ago) link
This turned out to be worth seeing. It's very clearly from Robbie's point of view but has some other voices to balance it out even if they don't contradict him. Who knew that two of the most important ones would be Ronnie Hawkins and, as mentioned upthread, Robbie's ex-wife, Dominique.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:46 (four years ago) link
Their son Sebastian has a very long Wikipedia entry, which includes mention of his friend Daniel Davies, son of Dave. Perhaps they could form some kind of supergroup with Rufus Wainwright and Teddy Thompson.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:48 (four years ago) link
John P was often billed as John Jr. while his father was still around, maybe so no semi-informed would think the old man was gonna play. I also heard that it was Mary Martin, not the Peter Pan star/Larry Hagman's Mom alas, but Grossman's associate, who got Dylan to go see the Hawks, as Wiki sez, with sources noted re all this (caveat on top: "This article needs additional citations...," but this section seems okay):
As Dylan finished the sessions for his 1965 "Positively 4th Street" single, he wanted to reproduce on-stage the same sound that he had polished in the studio.[1] He soon began to gather a pick-up band, with several musicians, such as bassist Harvey Brooks and organist Al Kooper, that had played during the sessions for Highway 61 Revisited.[1] However, the bulk of the players came from Ronnie Hawkins' former backing group, Levon and the Hawks. They impressed Dylan when he saw them play in Toronto, at the direction of Albert Grossman's staffer, Mary Martin, who told him to visit the group at Le Coq d'Or Tavern, a Yonge Street club. (Robbie Robertson recalled that it was the Friar's Tavern, a nearby establishment.)[2] An alternate version of the first meeting, put forward by Williamson, suggests that he saw them in a Jersey Shore club.[1] Drummer Levon Helm and guitarist Robbie Robertson were quickly invited to join Dylan's backing group.[2] Only two shows into the initial tour in North America, Kooper left the band due to stress and safety concerns.[3][4] He and Brooks were promptly replaced by the remaining Hawks (bassist Rick Danko, pianist Richard Manuel and organist Garth Hudson). Drummer Levon Helm, too, disillusioned by the constantly hostile reception from audiences, jumped ship in November, getting replaced by session drummer Bobby Gregg.[2][5] Gregg eventually left the band as the tour progressed, and Sandy Konikoff replaced him on drums, but Konikoff also left when Dylan traveled to Australia.[2] Former Johnny Rivers drummer Mickey Jones remained with the band throughout the rest of the tour.---from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan_World_Tour_1966
― dow, Sunday, 20 September 2020 03:33 (four years ago) link
Of course, just because she told him to check out the whole group, doesn't mean that younger John *didn't* take Robertson to meet him during sessions or whatever it was. Maybe that meeting inclined D. to follow her advice, even though she was just, like, a woman.
― dow, Sunday, 20 September 2020 03:37 (four years ago) link
Mary Martin honored by the Country Music Hall of Fame:...Jay Orr, a museum staff member who hosted the program, listed a few of Martin’s important achievements in his introduction. “She played a key role in connecting Bob Dylan with the Band; she managed Leonard Cohen, Van Morrison, Rodney Crowell, and Vince Gill at crucial stages of their careers; she signed Emmylou Harris to Warner Bros. Records at the outset of her illustrious Hall of Fame run. Then Mary came to Nashville where she touched lives inside and outside the music business.”---from https://countrymusichalloffame.org/plan-your-visit/exhibits-activities/public-programs/the-louise-scruggs-memorial-forum/mary-martin/
― dow, Sunday, 20 September 2020 03:43 (four years ago) link
Robbie’s version of the story as told in Testimony is that they first met Dylan briefly through Hammond, that Mary Martin was working in the Grossman office and pushing for the Hawks, at some point Robbie was asked to come to meet Dylan at the office, they then took some guitars from the Grossman office and went to Grossman’s house to play a few tunes together, Robbie realized this was an audition and said “but I already have my own band!” Then there was a further meeting with some other management in which a full band audition was discussed and Robbie mentioned the Toronto gig, so Dylan- and Sara! - flew up to Toronto. Dylan came to a couple of gigs and after the customers left they all played Dylan material together to see how it went.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 10:56 (four years ago) link
His version is sufficiently detailed to have the ring of truth, mostly, factoring whatever Robbie-centricity one attributes to him. In the documentary they only mention Mickey Jones, no Bobby Gregg as a Levon substitute, never mind Sandy Stranger, which was confusing. Couldn’t figure out who that Williamson was, James Williamson?
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 11:00 (four years ago) link
One of my favorite Robertson bullshit anecdotes, related by Heylin, is that during the Basement Tapes period, Robertson claimed he got Dylan to realize that the early Sun Records recordings had a certain sound, man. Like Dylan wasn't familiar with Sun Records for more than 10 years at that point having grown up on that stuff.
― James Gandolfini the Grey (PBKR), Sunday, 20 September 2020 13:01 (four years ago) link
There's a bunch of stuff like that in Testimony, can't recall any others right now.Reminds me that Dion DiMucci sometimes makes some similar claims, believe he says he is the one who gave Dylan the idea to go electric.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 14:41 (four years ago) link
Watched about a half-hour of that Louise Scruggs Mary Martin event. Good stuff. She confirms The Band's car-wrecking propensity, just in case we didn't already have enough evidence. Also tells a good story aboutLeonard Cohen doing a demo tape in her bathtub, presumably not the same tub Sylvia Tyson used to write her most famous composition, for which Garth Hudson prepared some really ornate lead sheets that she wishes she still had.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 14:44 (four years ago) link
'The Band' is a perfect album... and 'whispering pines' is just about the most beautiful, desolate song i've ever heard in my life, it never fails to move me to tears. (i have an MP3 of elliott smith stumbling through it somewhere, and it is chilling)― stevie (stevie), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 10:52 (sixteen years ago)
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 16:06 (four years ago) link
That 1970 footage linked me to this 76 show - Manuel's voice seems a bit shot, but kinda surprised how much all of them are still putting into the performance - the clothes have got much worse
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 16:27 (four years ago) link
Haven’t gotten to this part of the Mary Martin interview yet:In her job capacity, Martin also saw several rock bands, including the New York Dolls and the Ramones. She regrets not bringing Tom Verlaine’s band Television to Warner Bros
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 16:47 (four years ago) link
Sandy Stranger By which I mean Sandy Konikoff. Who, when he arrived in NYC "looked like a beatnik from central casting," says Robbie, even though he was being trained by Ronnie Hawkins to replace Levon. Hawkins, annoyed at losing another band member to Dylan, threatened to break his legs, according to Konikoff. He, along with another guy from Buffalo with a Band connection, Stan Szelest, was also in the band Grinder's Switch with Garland Jeffries, which backed up John Cale on Vintage Violence before releasing their own album.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 18:50 (four years ago) link
I guess he is mentioned in that Wikipedia article dow posted last night.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 18:51 (four years ago) link
You mean you didn't read it?! Awww---yeah, Stan was in the Hawks before Manuel, came back to the Band after Manuel's suicide, then he himself died of a heart attack. His song "Too Soon Gone" was finished by Jules Shear, and included on Jericho, with dedications to Szelest and Manuel (found this when I was looking for backstory on Vintage Violence):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Szelest
― dow, Sunday, 20 September 2020 19:27 (four years ago) link
I did read it, last night! But in the morning I act like I never have read.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 19:34 (four years ago) link
let’s get you two on a throbbing gristle thread and call it the dow james industrial
― budo jeru, Sunday, 20 September 2020 20:52 (four years ago) link
Heh. You could also just post that here: Create a Super-ILXer!
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 September 2020 21:32 (four years ago) link
You’re still there, huh?
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 September 2020 17:59 (four years ago) link
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, September 20, 2020 5:56 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
His version is sufficiently detailed to have the ring of truth, mostly, factoring whatever Robbie-centricity one attributes to him...― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs)
Yeah, and seems plausible to have this kind of process: Dylan took chances, but as calculated risks, often enough. He knew these road vets had mad skillz, but that they were from all around the boondocks, and, in at least one interview I've Robertson freely copped to their not really knowing much about him, and esp, not knowing that they were about to be "going around the world getting booed"---so he didn't warn them? Maybe he was hoping it wouldn't be so bad (and/or not wanting to think about it), and maybe it wasn't really *so* bad (by some eyewitness accounts, also earwitness to bootlegs of the show, Newport was a bit of a hype, booing-wise). But apparently they weren't expecting it, and it became more predictable than a rando night in a rando dive past Moose Jaw, where there might at least be chicken wire giving them some sense of stage security---no, this was the Big Time!
― dow, Monday, 21 September 2020 23:26 (four years ago) link
“Big Time, Bill, Big Time!”
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 September 2020 23:32 (four years ago) link
Finally figured out he was talking to Bill Graham.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 September 2020 00:19 (four years ago) link
Took John Simon’s book out of the library. Good stuff.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 September 2020 03:28 (four years ago) link
Not so great typesetting and proofreading but good stuff anyway.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 September 2020 04:10 (four years ago) link
You're still there, huh?
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 September 2020 21:49 (four years ago) link
So one interesting thing I learned I didn't know was that Miles Davis opened for The Band at least once around the time of Bitches Brew. Levon had some troubles that night but that didn't seem to stop Jack DeJohnette from becoming a friend and a fan, playing at the Ramble and recording a pretty good version of "Up On Cripple Creek" with his Hudson project.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 September 2020 22:01 (four years ago) link
Oh cool, will have to check that.Speaking of John Simon, think I saw this one a long time ago, always wondered about it--- from Xgau's 70s Guide, also on his site:John Simon's Album [Warner Bros., 1970]Somewhere beyond the plaintive quaver, rootsy supersession rock is mixed with pre-WW2 touches in a series of homely sketches--many of them about outsiders trying to make something of their lives, a theme to which a plaintive quaver is well-suited. Highlight: "The Song of the Elves," in which outsiders brag about how tall they are. B+
That's the book version, I guess, but the original column is also archived, more qualified at first, then more enthusiastic and specific about the album's higlights:
JOHN SIMON: John Simon's Album (Warner Bros.) If you can get past Simon's plaintive quaver, which took me three months and at least a dozen plays, this is almost as extraordinary as its reviewers claim. At least two sensibilities involved in the mix: the best pre-WW2 pop (Gershwin, Porter) and post-Pepper studio rock. Highlights: "The Song of the Elves," "Railroad Train Runnin' Up My Back." B PLUS
― dow, Friday, 25 September 2020 22:09 (four years ago) link
I learned that from Robbie's book but John's book is good too and I am curious about his solo material.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 September 2020 22:13 (four years ago) link
John Simon made a circuit of local (Hudson Valley, upstate NY) public libraries a few years ago, basically doing a q&a. While he stated up front that his memory isn’t great, he did say the following: he's on Robbie's side on the authorship dispute with Levon; Antonioni originally wanted the Band to do the music for Zabriske Point; Bob Dylan asked Simon to be his "musical secretary" for Renaldo & Clara (Simon declined); and he singled out Prince's "Erotic City" as a song that really knocked him out production-wise. He also played (piano) and sang a song from one of his solo records. Someone in the audience had a copy he wanted John to sign; John joked, “Ah, so you’re the one who bought it!” but also seemed genuinely appreciative that someone was into his solo work.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 25 September 2020 23:07 (four years ago) link
been playing that Richard Manuel's The Band playlist ever since UMS shared it, and i've been consistently knocked out by "in a station," which i'd always thought of as a minor track on big pink. no longer.
― i got a homogenic björk wine farmer permabanned (voodoo chili), Friday, 25 September 2020 23:19 (four years ago) link
Seems like Antonioni wanted everybody in Rock in 1969 to do music for Zabriskie Point. Of course, this Band thing kind of explains him hiring the even more off the wall roots mavens (US) Kaleidoscope later.
― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 25 September 2020 23:24 (four years ago) link
Oho. I've never heard it---saw the film on tcm long ago, don't remember the music, but this says a lot gathered/recorded for soundtrack didn't make it to the screen---but Roscoe Holcomb and John Fahey tracks are listed, seems like The Band could fit somewhere in between:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabriskie_Point_(album)
― dow, Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:01 (four years ago) link
Pink Floyd ended up doing most of it, Jerry Garcia scored the love scene (which Floyd attempted, their effort rejected), and as mentioned in that article, the Doors wrote a song that was rejected, and supposedly prior to that they were considered for more.
Kaleidoscope got brought in extremely late in post-production, delivering the two songs on the album. After the work had been submitted and approved, one of the Kaleidoscope guys reported that upon receiving their paychecks, someone from MGM apologized for their small size, as "this project has gone on so long that there was barely any budget left for music: these checks are the absolute bottom of the barrel."
Those checks were the biggest payout Kaleidoscope had every gotten for their work up to that point.
― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:24 (four years ago) link
...and probably after as well!
― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:25 (four years ago) link
IIRC Dave Gilmour couldn't understand why Antonioni wanted them to write Country-oriented material, "because we were in L.A., where there were tons of great bands playing that kind of material."
― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:30 (four years ago) link
Some of the stories Robbie and John Simon tell are exactly the same, like the one about Antonioni and Clare Peploe sitting on the edge of Levon’s bed to listen to the playback of “Across the Great Divide” and Antonioni perking up when he heard a word he recognized and making a finger gun and saying “pistole!”
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:40 (four years ago) link
Haven’t read the article yet so wondering which Kaleidoscope it was.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:43 (four years ago) link
Correction: they tell similar stories with different but not contradictory details. Robbie mentions Clare Peploe, John Simon mentions the pistole.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:48 (four years ago) link
Simon describes Robbie as “canny,” and this being a “consistent” quality of his.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:53 (four years ago) link
xxp Think it was the Cali K-scope, most appropriately for the film---although, since he was trying to get Pink Floyd to go country, why not the UK or "Mexican" (actually mostly Caribbean, best I recall from promo sheet).
― dow, Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:54 (four years ago) link
canny, cunning, why not.
― dow, Saturday, 26 September 2020 00:55 (four years ago) link
wondering which Kaleidoscope it was.
<cough>
Seems like Antonioni wanted everybody in Rock in 1969 to do music for Zabriskie Point. Of course, this Band thing kind of explains him hiring the even more off the wall roots mavens (US) Kaleidoscope
― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 26 September 2020 01:00 (four years ago) link