Classic or dud : Jane's Addiction

But, like, Crue, Jane's Addiction ... I'm willing to believe the worst anyone says about demonstrably gross people and their respective bad behavior.

This revive is fantastic. I'd missed it. Wow. Thank you, ILM :)

By the way, I thought I'd put this comment here, from a YouTube video of 'Summertime Rolls':

Eden Lobb
1 year ago

This song always makes me feel nostalgic for a life that I never had. It makes me feel like I am am old man reflecting on my youth, but I'm 22 and I was homeschooled and do not have memories like that]

This revive is fantastic.

You could even say it's a… great revive.

But, like, Crue, Jane's Addiction ...

you can keep doing this but it's not going to start making more sense

You know I'm not suggesting they share many sonic similarities right? Or any? They are just similarly scummy and hedonistic hard rock LA people doing the things they do, the things that can fill a salacious oral history. Makes sense to me.

Los Angeles is literally all they have in common

Don't forget tattoos! So scummy

Come on, I know you all disagree, and they're not some perfect analog, but they have at least a little more in common than that.

those two bands and Oingo Boingo

Yes. But only those three bands.

I have to put it straight out there, that I am struggling in this conversation, as someone who was raped at the age of 13, and has zero desire to condone rape culture or cape for creepy dudes.

And yet, also, as someone who had consensual sex with older people before I reached the legal age of consent, (in fact even had a song written about me by a local punk band before I turned 18, which I *did* view as a tribute) I am struggling just as hard with the way that the girls/women in consensual situations like Xiola's are treated like their agency, their desires, their active participation just doesn't matter. We're missing her voice - I wonder if any of her poetry survives - and what she thought about the relationship, if she felt she was groomed or abused, or if it was as emotionally and creatively stimulating for her as for Perry and Casey? Not that it excuses or condemns Farrell for his part - but because her consent and motivation and agency matters, in determining if the album/art is disrespectful or a tribute. It's interesting to me to read the actual Jane's actual story - you know, it's complicated, Jane's story isn't simple, because addiction and recover isn't simple. But I relate far more to the Janes and the Xiolas in these stories (and I knew women very like them, back in the 80s) than it seems like some of you think about. That stuff like this seems less cut and dried if you were more likely to have been the Xiola than Perry Farrell (or Motley Crue).

As gross as Crue's behaviour was - that they treated women like pieces of meat - there's also something weirdly puritanical and often quite swerf-y about how the men who *oppose* this treatment, also treat the female participants as non-humans in a dehumanising way. Is it possible to condemn the Crue, and problematise Farrell's actions - without turning women into victims they may not have felt like they were? ARGH. I hate this discussion, I hate the conflicted way I feel when I participate.

I know that she got cancelled for later behaviour, but Jia Tolentino's essay on Lori Maddox and David Bowie, was really great at getting at some of the intensely complicated nuance around how we talk about this stuff, without discrediting or dismissing young women and their experiences.

This is a super fraught topic for me, so I'm probably going to bow out now - because, as a rape survivor, I do not want a bunch of dudes going around saying "Branwell excuses rape!!!" when I absolutely 100% do not, and I do not want to get crucified - or completely triggered - over another misunderstanding.

https://giphy.com/gifs/dancing-shark-forum-igR5863TALcSk

xpost to Josh )

It's not even as simple as "you excuse the band because you love the music they make" - there are bands I've loved much harder than Jane's who I've dropped much faster, because it was completely 100% clear that their members (in some cases, men I idolised!) were straight up abusive or violent towards women.

It's much more, "consent matters, agency matters, the women matter". And that's complicated.

I, too, never knew much or any of the backstory of the lyrics/theme of RdlH including Xiola who was depicted on the front cover and even pictured in memoriam in the dedication of the liner notes (!!! I swear I was a fairly observant fan of music pre-internet), but I thought this exchange upthread was worth a second-look:

such was the state of music journalism in the late 80s/early 90s
no one gave a shit iirc

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, August 4, 2020 12:12 PM (one hour ago)

and then...

I wrote a thing about that whole era of winking at "bad rock star behavior"

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/the-dirt-netflix-movie-motley-crue-book-adaptation.html

― The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, August 4, 2020 12:26 PM (forty-nine minutes ago)

and I quote:

Unlike Crüe, ’90s alterna-dudes were often using their spotlight for progressiveness and inclusivity. Perry Farrell brought alt-lit bookstore Amok Books on the first Lollapalooza, Nirvana’s Kurt Cobain decried homophobes in the Incesticide liner notes, the Beastie Boys published a pamphlet about respecting women in the mosh pit, and Minutemen’s Mike Watt put a Kathleen Hanna answering-machine message about statutory rape on his major-label solo debut. The actual backstage behavior of the alternative era was another story, obviously, and a lot of bad behavior was justified by intellectualizing shock tactics as “transgressive.” However, the public sentiment was tonally light-years from Poison singing “I Want Action” in front of a drum riser painted like a woman’s legs.

I don't think the Crue and Farrell are cut from the same cloth, although this Xiola tragedy reveal is incredibly unsettling. Because these events transpired over 30 years ago, I did a quick usenet search of her name which revealed she was a promising mixed-media artist and was well liked by all who knew her, and she also dated Angelo Moore (Fishbone) around the same time as Perry.

Not sure where I'm going with all of this other than:
1) Xiola's story is absolutely tragic and Perry (always seemingly portrayed in media as deep/spiritual/romantic) is really indefensible
2) Josh in Chicago (who I'm a huge fan of) has a very uh... unusual take on the LA underground scene confusing it with the Rainbow/Whiskey glam universe.

consensual situations like Xiola's

Are you sure that qualifier applies here? Age of consent laws exist for a reason, don't they?

xpost Ha, I admit I'm being at least a little facetious.

Yeah, I mean, again, per that excerpt. The *tone* and *vision* and *intentions* and *presentation* of the artists were wildly different, even if you correctly don’t want to split hairs between “raping teenagers because it’s badass” and “raping teenagers because I’m a cool bohemian free spirit weirdo”

That all said, there was probably a little more Entitled California Rock & Roll Douchebag in Perry and Dave than, say, Primus and Faith No More and Fishbone

@Whiney, there's a really good oral history of early Jane's in the Spin 2003 that you probably have access to? I just started reading it and it's pretty good.

Spin, Aug 2003

see if this works, starts on p. 68:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Gxaz3RhzGKoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Ads, ads everywhere. I'd forgotten what that's like.

Are you sure that qualifier applies here? Age of consent laws exist for a reason, don't they?

Even that's not cut and dry, though, insofar as these vary widely over time and between places - if Xiola were in Canada in the 80s, she would have been legally able to give consent (to sex, not heroin) even at 15, for example; so was it a non-consensual act just because they were in California? (Legally, yes.) Or were Canadian teenagers giving consent legally but not morally? (This might be an arguable yes as well but it's not clear-cut.)

And this is where we get above my pay grade so I'll note that I do like the solo on "Three Days" a lot.

It's a great solo, yeah.

Age of consent laws do vary a fair amount from context to context, no doubt about it, but for my money, 14 (more so than 15) is an exceedingly low threshold, pace Italy, Germany, Portugal, Austria, Hungary, etc. I certainly take your point, though.

(I think it was actually 14 in Canada as well pre-08.)

I don’t presume to know if Xiola did or didn’t feel like a victim, or if she might have considered the song & LP cover to in fact be awesome tributes to her short life. But knowing that Farrell began “dating” her when she was 15 (and he was 23 or 24), and that he introduced her to the drug that would soon kill her, makes her “consent” seem heavily complicated.

rolling age of consent and ripping navarro solos thread 2020

But knowing that Farrell began “dating” her when she was 15 (and he was 23 or 24), and that he introduced her to the drug that would soon kill her, makes her “consent” seem heavily complicated.

That very informative SPIN article says she was 13-14. He was 9.5 years older than her, so yeah still 23-24.

To his uh... credit (?) he didn't know she was his cousin until after she'd passed away.

Either way, extremely poor judgement. I don't care if you're from Flushing, Ann Arbor, West Hollywood or Punkeydoodles Corners.

(I think it was actually 14 in Canada as well pre-08.)

Yep, unless the adult was in a position of authority, which kinda begs the question imo.

Age of Consent guitar solo: https://youtu.be/MxH5odhoKfU

lol

"Actually it's ephebophelia and it's an example of the live más mentality."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C54gosWr5no

Tbf the lyrics are outright PC in comparison:

Sweet seventeen- age of consent
Seventeen- age of consent
She's seventeen and tight, ah yeah (look out)

it seemed to me there was a lot of pain and sadness informing this music...how much of it having to w the murder and suicide, respectively, of Dave's and Perry's mothers, I don't know

I also always felt that the light that came through it—the beauty—was a sexual energy, and more specifically a feminine energy. It never struck me as having anything to do with power or exploitation, but the sanctity of sex. If anything, as a kid it seemed to me that they were elevating women.

As for the stripper poles, the women in cages, etc. I definitely don't think that it was ironic—but it always scanned to me as having to do with establishing a balance—keeping one foot in the gutter, saying that sex can also be this too, it can be about objectifying each other as part of a compact, etc. (Obv BDSM was a big part of that aesthetic esp early on.)

guys i know you all love a good thought exercise & beating a dead horse literally to death but this is straying far far into nagl

(this all being a matter apart form the Xiola issue)

xp

Were there ever any boundary-pushing bands that dared put a scantily clad dancing *dude* in a cage to be objectified? Not taking a pot shot at this band in this case, just as I said, whenever bands want to be shocking or sexual or whatever, it's always the ladies that get trotted out as props.

Other than this guy of course
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_1Fr5F9Q_J0/hqdefault.jpg

I also always felt that the light that came through it—the beauty—was a sexual energy, and more specifically a feminine energy. It never struck me as having anything to do with power or exploitation, but the sanctity of sex.

There is a particular type of creepy guy who works this angle, of course - "It'll be a spiritual experience...". Maybe Farrell is the exception.

(Sorry, I should stop posting - I'm genuinely skeeved, but I'm not even a fan of this band, so what do I care.)

Josh honestly I think you kind of don't get any of this, because as you said upthread you missed it at the time, but you are painting in really broad strokes and continuing to miss the mark and it's really fucking annoying

JiC forgot about Bez

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WellgroomedAnotherIbadanmalimbe-small.gif

I thought exploring the tension between 'you had to be there, maaaaan' and retrospective post-millennial takes thereon was the whole point of this revive?

I dunno I think I have a handle on what Pearl Jam's deal is, but because I've never really listened to it very closely I'm going to refrain from shitting it up w/ my long-distance takes

I'm 45 years old, I'm very aware of the band. I missed them only in the sense that I didn't like or connect with them. Jane's Addiction doesn't need me as a fan, but if the only people who can discuss bands are fans of them, well, I know how that goes.