John Zorn: Classic or Dud?

No one is ever going to hear it all except the man himself but every time I delve deeper into his tentacular discography, I arrive at the same (ever shallow) conclusion: Naked City, Bar Kokhba, The Circle Maker and Live at Tonic 2001 are his peaks.

Bar Kokhba Sextet from the 50th birthday series and Electric Masada - At the Mountains of Madness are two underappreciated classics.

I guess he finances Tzadik with that fellowship grant he got a few years back? That, and his own CDs must sell enough to turn a small profit. He doesn't seem the kind of guy to have outlandish living expenses either.

I'm not sure with the current media setup whether it would be easier or harder to pull off what someone like John Zorn has accomplished across his musical career.

it would be completely impossible now

xpost you mean that MacArthur Grant? I'm sure that helped. But I think that was 2006. He had it all figured out well before then. I think Zorn lucked out in a couple of regards, like no doubt getting space in NYC when the getting was good, but he also has maintained any number of long lasting relationships with people that would drop everything to work with or for him.

I've always been struck by the consistent quality of his CD sleeves, of all things, not just the art but the way the booklets and cases were printed and laid out. There was and I assume remains a lot of effort put into what turned out to be, ironically, pretty disposable media. Is any of his music out of print? In one of those things I or someone else posted there's a claim made that little he has recorded has sold more than 10,000 copies, so does he just create small runs of stuff that still doesn't sell out?

That's why I typically listen for specific players rather than the compositions, as such. Masada was always an experiment in melody, but I would also listen to those musicians any time, in any context. Zorn tends to get some great work out great players given a longer leash than usual to get out of their comfort zones (or to get comfortable in *his* zone). Like, per that RS piece, Dave Lombardo getting to improvise, or Joey Baron having a blast playing blast beats, or Frisell getting the rare excuse to embrace all his diverse interests at the same time. Bill Laswell, for example, is also a king at gathering talented eclectic players, but he is more interested in shaping them to his vision as a producer, imo;

Tbh, this is so much the case that I sometimes question whether Zorn's name should even be on some of these albums.

Certainly there are Zorn projects that Zorn is not on. He's just writes the pieces or conducts and so on. On the group projects or things like that, do they share writing credit?

Anyone else see the Frisell doc? It's great, but he's just a compulsive composer, leaving sheets of scribbled melodies lying all over the house.

On any Tzadik album with Zorn's name on it, he writes all the music. Even when there are passages of improvisation, it's because he's basically written "Improvise from here to here" in the score.

I know Tzadik did a limited run of a few titles on vinyl last year, to offset big losses from that distribution outfit Pledge Music going under, I guess they lost a bundle. One of the only times I've ever heard of Tzadik vinyl, other than the Dreamers christmas album and a couple other things.

Strange to think he'll be 67 this year! His output has averaged around 10 releases per year for two decades or more now, doesn't seem to be any signs of slowing down either.

On any Tzadik album with Zorn's name on it, he writes all the music. Even when there are passages of improvisation, it's because he's basically written "Improvise from here to here" in the score.

Have you seen the scores? I just wonder what the ratio is - whether they're more like jazz charts where he wrote a head or what. I got the sense they were pretty loose but I've not found the actual scores for these - thinking of things like the Gnostic Preludes discs with Frisell or the Masada Songbook discs that are credited to him but don't feature his playing, not Naked City or Cobra.

OK, yeah, if this is what the performers are working from, that seems p similar to what any jazz improviser works from:
https://wiki.masada.world/index.php?title=File:ABIDAN.jpg
https://wiki.masada.world/index.php?title=File:MIBI.jpg
https://wiki.masada.world/index.php?title=File:Hath-Arob.jpg

Or are those just excerpts? Bar numbers in the second make me wonder.

The Masada charts (as such) are bits and pieces of melodies and themes to improvise around. Iirc from the aforementioned doc the Frisell scribbles looked very similar.

That said, I bet they're a little more comprehensive than those images.

I haven't seen the scores, but I've interviewed musicians who've played on his projects, and they explained to me that he writes everything and conducts them in the studio. Masada is a different thing - he was explicitly working in a "jazz" (read: head-solos-head and out) context there, so he wrote a zillion short tunes for the band (and later ensembles) to play. But for example, there's an album that's a piano trio with Tyshawn Sorey on drums where the piano and bass parts are completely written, but Sorey's part is entirely improvised.

I saw that maybe a decade ago Dave Douglas did a seminar on Masada, and this was the pitch:

When John asked me to present a seminar, I thought: why not take a handful of Masada tunes, old and new, and play them with people? We’ll have the charts in Zorn’s incredibly-expressive handwriting… Bring your instrument as the goal will be to play as many tunes as we can get through. I learned a lot playing these tunes, and I think people may enjoy coming to get a closer look at how the tunes look and how performances of them work. Word is the composer may even come by and answer some of the many remaining questions I have for him.
Playing this music has always been fun, challenging, and thought-provoking for me. I can’t say that I have any answers, but Monday we will open up the book and see where the charts take us. Each of these tunes points in a unique and inspiring direction.

Just googling around, I found this example of a Naked City chart:

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/p960x960/15235410_1342911889052648_2410928962678836150_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=oQifnF3A9c8AX8UCB1m&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&_nc_tp=6&oh=bf18a0fab8ec5160db2625b7361e5fbf&oe=5F18192B

Also found this NPR piece on the Pledge Music collapse:

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/14/723225435/as-a-crowdfunding-platform-implodes-a-legendary-composer-rebounds?fbclid=IwAR3sKNYJoRcNJhFKxX_y952SWk443qR_2jVYK9rYdg4A40mdTvBN9poFwI4

Thanks, that's helpful info. I'll look for the doc. Yeah, I have the Cobra score and have done it before and have seen some Naked City stuff (but not that one, I don't think) and do find those things fascinating. It was the other ones that I was questioning more. (The music p much always sounds good tbc!)

I'm more interested in the non-Zorn albums on Tzadik, like this incredible percussion album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htq_tQbLXTs&list=PLvXNbgj_M4CX1_sm62I-Z38H_6IG6gM09

?

https://youtu.be/Htq_tQbLXTs?list=PLvXNbgj_M4CX1_sm62I-Z38H_6IG6gM09

Also found youtube bootlegs of Uri Caine's solo piano Masada record, and the piano trio with Craig Taborn/Christian McBride/Tyshawn Sorey. I'd love to hear that Hall of Mirrors record with the notated piano parts though.

I'd love to know the budget breakdown for a standard Tzadik project. Recording time and costs, sales, artist deals.

I'm sure Tzadik doesn't have a huge budget, but holy shit, please employ a web designer from the 21st century. The site is maddeningly bad, which is extra frustrating when you know there's tons of cool stuff to discover if only navigating through it all weren't so miserable.

Ohhh, Raz Mesinai is Badawi, that makes sense (also explains why that album sounds so amazing, he's the producer and engineer, not the percussionist). I keep running into him under different guises.

xp

Agreed on the website. I think an easier-browsing, easier-using redesign would pay for itself in increased sales pretty quickly.

The blurb to this year's Virtue for guitar trio (Julian Lage, Bill Frisell & Gyan Riley) got a chuckle out of me: 'Softly spiritual music that is perfect for meditative late night listening alone or with a special friend'.

ha. i often think about what it must be like for whoever has the task of writing the blurbs for 150 Tzadik releases a year.

Ok I've really been enjoying kind & gentle Zorn (sans Zorn) the last few days, like the guitar trio album and guitar/harp/vibes trio, both with Frisell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6xPjANLZjA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJKDl7VGUyQ

Love those "Gnostic Trio" gtr/harp/vibes albums, about once a year I'll go through a stretch where I just literally cannot turn them off for a few days straight.

Ooh, I need to check these out

It sounds like Tortoise minus drums in a lot of places

Wait, that's what Tortoise sounded like??

Whereas the guitar trio album was reminding me of like '80s King Crimson-lite (in a good way)

Specifically like 'The Suspension Bridge at Iguazu Falls' Tortoise.

Wait, Sund4r, you aren't into Tortoise?!

And, yes, I do love the Gnostic Trio albums and enjoyed Virtue, which I just listened to, thanks to that Youtube stream. (Will buy this one certainly.) This is what I mean, though: if it is in fact the case that they're basically improvising on heads that Zorn gave them, should they be credited as "John Zorn" albums, as opposed to e.g. "Frisell/Lage/Riley (playing the music of John Zorn)", any more than any other recording where Frisell improvises on heads by any other composer? xp

Haha, I hated Millions Now Living when my hardcore-loving friends bought it in high school and never really gave them many other chances. Listened to TNT after it came out, when I was in university, and thought it was sort of dumbed-down Reich meets dumbed-down improv. I am far more open to 'dumbed-down' versions of things now, though.

Presumably Zorn is guiding the music as they play too.

I was watching this wonderful concert last night. It gives a pretty good view of what his direction looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQoIDkVO3mo

Just saw this is on the way. Seems like one of the most accessible, mainstream-ish things he has ever done?

John Zorn-Jesse Harris: Songs For Petra [#8374]

Singer Petra Haden excels in this beautiful and unique program of songs penned by the songwriting team of John Zorn and Jesse Harris. Friends for many years, they began working together on The Song Project in 2012, and 8 years later this CD presents the full fruits of their collaboration: 13 Zorn compositions with original lyrics by Jesse Harris. Including the most beautiful melodies from a wide variety of Zorn CDs (and one original that has never appeared on cd before), the melodies are catchy, the lyrics heartfelt, the grooves deep and the solos profound and exhilarating. Backed by the amazing Julian Lage, Jorge Roeder and Kenny Wollesen and produced by Jesse Harris, this is a CD that you will listen to again and again.
(Release date: August 2020)

I scored Frith&Zorn's "late works" for pennies and have found it surprisingly rewarding.

For a moment, I thought you meant you wrote or arranged the score.

ha, me too!

ha same

What Tortoise should I listen to if I want something like the Gnostic Trio??

I have no better recommendation than TNT, mostly that one track though. :)

It has been about 20 years since I heard it. P sure I'd appreciate it better now.

re zorn w/out zorn i've been following rjc since the imprint launched and i have an incomplete list of some of my fave stuff from it if anyone is curious:

Barbez! - Bella Ciao
Jamie Saft - Black Shabbis
Jamie Saft - Breadcrumb Sins
Sofia Rei - Beriah vol. 1
Cracow Klezmer Band - De Profundis
Mycale - Book of Angels V. 13
Deveykus - Pillar Without Mercy
New Klezmer Trio - Short for Something
Tim Sparks - Tanz
Jewlia Eisenberg - Trilectic
Dan Kaufman - Force of Light
Yoshie Fruchter - Pitom
Ayelet Rose Gottleib - Mayim Rabim
Kletka Red - Hijacking
Jon Madof - Zion80
Pharoah's Daughter - Out of the Reeds

Followed a lot of JZs projects in the 80s but the last one I really paid attention to was the original run of Masada. There seems to be a real lack of critical writing about his post 2000 releases. I liked the bomb interview and the Shteamer article was good but that's not a side of his work that I care much about. Something made me start to look through his recent stuff but I feel a bit lost. Picked up the solo Tractatus musico-philisophicus which seems like a new approach to his early solo projects.

The Jeremiah cymerman 5049 podcast has featured interview with many people in the Zorn and tzadik orbit. Cymerman seems close to Zorn personally. There was a good recent episode with engineer Marc Urselli where they talked a fair bit about
working with Zorn in the studio.

http://www.5049records.com/podcast/coronacast-3-marc-urselli

I still love Spillane because i bought it when I was 16 after watching put blood in the music and it blew my mind a bit.

if it came out now I'd still think it was pretty frazzled/inspired/brilliant.

xxp
don't mind a bit of Jeremiah Cymerman, quite bleak but I keep going back to it.