lots of good points from jordan above, but to d40s point ... i just feel like the contemporary online alt right isn't just a race thing, those dudes are all in on various forms of domination and oppression including misogyny, and seem to have a disturbing cultural cache with musicians these days (see ariel pink and john maus making music for the sympathetic incel documentary just now, danny l harle on million dollar extreme, etc). feels like part of a new front on the US culture war and so while im not saying that makes the litany of gendered violence receipts provided by jordan above any less bad, i guess i am maybe speculating as to why the doja thing might seem worse/different than just "trolling' to some. and in terms of other similarities to various things rotting our minds these days it also seems connected to the trump/kanye thing
― Vapor waif (uptown churl), Monday, 25 May 2020 18:59 (four years ago) link
the-dream is a multiple time physical abuser, just wrote beyonce's verse for megan the stallion remix. nelly is a multiple time alleged rapist, was just given one of the biggest platforms in music to celebrate his legacy. this stuff pops up on twitter now and again so i'm not saying nobody is talking about it.
But I can say that as a casual music consumer and not somebody who follows music Twitter neither of these facts are things I knew at all.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 25 May 2020 21:01 (four years ago) link
sure of course. and there's plenty of logical explanations for that beyond the dynamic i'm describing. but it's also illustrative of my point. one of the inherent flaws of the post-me too discourse is that it requires the building of a vast mental dossier of problematic incidents, and it's unrealistic to expect many people -- even those generally interested in discussing the arts -- to keep up. stans can flourish in this environment because when it comes to the news story that is "doja cat responds to being cancelled" the reporting (what doja cat did) is already out there (via the stans, who created the news story in the first place)
― J0rdan S., Monday, 25 May 2020 21:14 (four years ago) link
the big thing that frustrated me about this particular incident is that I saw people all over Twitter legitimately asking what Doja did and for details, only to get brush-off responses, like it was this insider knowledge, and you were an asshole if you didn't already know it. It actually took me a while to figure out what the hubbub was about as few people were actually sharing anything helpful about it, or were just sharing the conclusions without sharing any specific details as to what happened.
― I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Monday, 25 May 2020 21:39 (four years ago) link
Most people don't even know what happened, they're just playing Twitter telephone. The same issue arose with regard to Black Dresses and Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith.
― pomenitul, Monday, 25 May 2020 21:43 (four years ago) link
A thing occurred and you must now adopt my take on this scandalous thing except I'm not going to tell you what it is because I myself have no idea.
― pomenitul, Monday, 25 May 2020 21:45 (four years ago) link
yeah I get sick of the "I'm not going to spoonfeed you, do your own research" responses
― I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Monday, 25 May 2020 21:50 (four years ago) link
Twitter telephone is also famous for fucking up news. the day Kobe died, hundreds of tweeters were claiming (with zero corroboration) that he was the pilot of the helicopter and aggressively arguing with people who suggested there was a separate pilot and Kobe was a passenger, and then they went eerily quiet the moment the news confirmed the latter was true.
― I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Monday, 25 May 2020 21:53 (four years ago) link
Highest paid crisis actor in NBA history iirc.
― pomenitul, Monday, 25 May 2020 21:55 (four years ago) link
The thing that’s going to hurt Doja Cat’s longevity isn’t an unearthed 4chan past; it’s not being particularly interesting.
Like, flirting with edgelords 5 years ago is the first thing I’ve seen about her that makes me remember who she is.
― (so serious) (DJP), Monday, 25 May 2020 23:01 (four years ago) link
the Tolentino thing seems like a pretty strong case of "twitter telephone"
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 02:34 (four years ago) link
xp her breakout hit was "mooo!" that's something at least
― ufo, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 02:46 (four years ago) link
she's apologizing for all of this on instagram live in a shirt that says HENTAI in flames
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 26 May 2020 05:02 (four years ago) link
Where do I get that shirt
― silby, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 05:05 (four years ago) link
i wasn't arguing to 'cancel her' jordan lmao im just saying that i think handwaving flirting w white supremacists online is .. not good
esp since as shes showing in this recent video its not like shes been humbled by any of this, im sure shes just seeing it as another in a line of 'all publicity is good publicity' things & im sure she like tons of ppl on 4chan just see it all as a big joke except when they mean it, so its like ... you literally cant 'shame' that out of someone bc they detach from the consequences of their actions (& per tsrobodo probably dont see their actions as ever having much meaningful agency or effect on the world) (the great irony now being that they're represented by a literal no. 1 pop star)
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 07:26 (four years ago) link
im not really mad at doja for this or something, more just unsettled by the way this space operates as a like source of fuckd up brainwashing
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 07:39 (four years ago) link
Based on what I've read, this all seems like pretty fucked up stuff, so i would not seek to take issue with anyone who decided "this artist is no longer for me under any circumstances", but... It does feel to me that at least one fundamental difference between this scandal and the examples j0rds provides above with respect to male artists is not just white supremacy but also... misogyny and domestic violence rarely-if-ever code to the general public as "fake" behaviour (even when/though they are recognised as awful)*, whereas in the particular context of the kind of music doja cat makes, her behaviour is not just merely gross / sad but also can easily be framed as a sign that she is fundamentally a fraud.
Maybe I'm over-keen to make this align with my existing sense that in the current era the historical popular emphasis on judging musical artists by notions of real/fake has just shifted from structural factors to personal politics (e.g. the label you're on is less important than the contents of your twitter feed), but it feels very consistent. Which of course extends well beyond just the way "we" think about music.
I suspect this also plays into doja cat's apparent air of comfort with the blowback: there's almost a hillary clinton-esque "well if i'm gonna be judged regardless I may as well go ahead and get paid to speak to SocGen" air to her insouciance.
*Insert long side-discussion about Chris Brown as the liminal case here.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 07:52 (four years ago) link
the Tolentino thing seems like a pretty strong case of "twitter telephone"― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, May 25, 2020 10:34 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, May 25, 2020 10:34 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
not really? "human trafficker" might have been an inflammatory phrase, but tolentino's parents took real advantage of desperate filippino immigrants, coaxing them to america with promises of jobs that didn't always materialize and saddling them with more fees than it was possible to pay.
― treeship., Tuesday, 26 May 2020 15:07 (four years ago) link
I was referring to her NY media blue check peers and twitter stans reflexively coming to her defense actually
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 15:16 (four years ago) link
ah.
i mean, i feel that the way it was brought up originally was gross too, as some kind of "gotcha." i don't envy jia tolentino's position. that said, she was dismissive and evasive about the testimony of these immigrants and tried to make it seem like the whole case was fabricated by ICE.
― treeship., Tuesday, 26 May 2020 15:23 (four years ago) link
Imagine if twitter existed during 9/11.
...
No, no, stop, don't jump.
― I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 15:23 (four years ago) link
i don't envy jia tolentino's position. that said, she was dismissive and evasive about the testimony of these immigrants and tried to make it seem like the whole case was fabricated by ICE.
but also she really did not have to say anything at all. was anyone even talking about it before the post
(sorry for continued derail)
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 15:42 (four years ago) link
Saying nothing would probably be the smart course of action in 99% of these cars y
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 16:44 (four years ago) link
Er..cases
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 16:45 (four years ago) link
it was cool to see identity politics be weaponized to defend human trafficking, I must say. there are literally no depths that cannot be plumbed in this new, exciting age
― COVID and the Gang (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 16:46 (four years ago) link
xp people were talking about it, simon. someone on reddit uncovered the original news coverage of the case and it was making the rounds on twitter.
― treeship., Tuesday, 26 May 2020 18:20 (four years ago) link
I really like that “Say So” song.
― Mr. Snrub, Monday, 29 June 2020 23:39 (three years ago) link
I've never found myself listening to "Say So" and thinking, "this is really nice but I wish the backing track sounded more like Evanescence's 2002 alt-rock hit 'Bring Me to Life'," but this is...something:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGBeV-Hlqaw
― unregistered, Monday, 9 November 2020 23:57 (three years ago) link
2020 popstars revealing their ✨HIDDEN UNTAPPED ROCK CRED✨ (this, Post Malone's Nirvana tribute, https://www.nme.com/news/music/kidding-billie-eilish-reacts-dave-grohl-comparing-nirvana-2459635) could probably be its own thread
― unregistered, Tuesday, 10 November 2020 00:05 (three years ago) link
"say so" sequel is out
― dyl, Friday, 9 April 2021 05:41 (three years ago) link
Really disappointing taste in restaurants
https://postmates.com/blog/the-receipt-doja-cats-order-history
― bruce spr!ngisH3r3 on broadway (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 30 June 2021 23:52 (two years ago) link
i thought maybe the bump would be abt the new album. guess not
― dyl, Thursday, 1 July 2021 05:22 (two years ago) link
i'm having a hard time getting into it all that much. her talent is evident but the production is homogenized in a way that leaves me a bit cold, idk. i like the song w/ ariana grande, it has some cool harmonies, a few of the ones on the back end i fuck with too. it's one of those albums that makes me appreciate the single more, i've been playing "kiss me more" a lot. also liked some of the deluxe songs, the one w/ eve is really fun. hot pink was an imperfect album but it felt more distinct to me than this, like she had leveled up the production while still retaining her identity. this one is bringing her further from that i think but i'm gonna give it a few more chances
― J0rdan S., Thursday, 1 July 2021 05:29 (two years ago) link
kiss me more is a great song, isn't it?
― bezos did the dub (voodoo chili), Monday, 9 August 2021 16:04 (two years ago) link
i think so
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Monday, 9 August 2021 16:07 (two years ago) link
"kiss me more" is great. the video kind of weirded me out at first.
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 5 January 2022 23:50 (two years ago) link
I really hate everything she’s done and can’t disassociate the ironic racism from her current incatnation
― castanuts (DJP), Wednesday, 5 January 2022 23:57 (two years ago) link
hmm yeah i sort of forgot about that, it is pretty repulsive
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Thursday, 6 January 2022 00:03 (two years ago) link
Sounds like she’s having a rough week: https://www.eonline.com/news/1324617/why-doja-cat-says-shes-quitting-music
― Please don’t take / My time change away (morrisp), Saturday, 26 March 2022 01:45 (two years ago) link
:'(
it is in many ways a shitty biz
― corrs unplugged, Saturday, 26 March 2022 10:26 (two years ago) link
Get Into It (Yuh) is really good
― paolo, Saturday, 26 March 2022 10:33 (two years ago) link
the attitude of those fans reminded me of the Mitski blow up when she asked people not to record entire shows on their phones a few weeks ago; massive entitlement from young fans. honestly when I look at any (usually female) musician's twitter or fb followers I fucking cringe with the 'bestie' shit and the deranged amount of importance fans put on their parasocial relationships. I'd fucking quit too.
― akm, Saturday, 26 March 2022 19:19 (two years ago) link
yeah music fans have always had disordered relationships with artists to some degree but the way in which such emotions can be directly expressed to the artists — who in turn feel compelled to “engage” with their fans — nowadays is clearly unhealthy
― J0rdan S., Saturday, 26 March 2022 19:31 (two years ago) link
Needs to hop back on 4Chan chat for a pick me up
― papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 26 March 2022 20:07 (two years ago) link
lol milo
― castanuts (DJP), Saturday, 26 March 2022 20:12 (two years ago) link
is her new album going to be good or will it just make her current badmouthing of her last albums seem embarrassing?
― dyl, Thursday, 11 May 2023 07:28 (one year ago) link
Well she is right that the last two weren’t as good as “Amala”
― xheugy eddy (D-40), Thursday, 11 May 2023 17:56 (one year ago) link
one thing I can say for Doja Cat is she fucking hates her fans, and I don't blame her
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Monday, 24 July 2023 16:42 (ten months ago) link
the disgust i'm seeing from some online at her recent statements is so intense, but i don't think anything she's said is that outrageous. like, sure, it's imprudent and disrespectful to say those things openly, but she's definitely far from the only artist who feels that way
― dyl, Monday, 24 July 2023 19:50 (ten months ago) link
Her online fan base is as toxic and dumb as most
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Monday, 24 July 2023 20:10 (ten months ago) link