xposting to myself, memory jogged: duh, I completely forgot that "Owner of a Lonely Heart" is half Motown riff. Still, prog does tend to shy away from soul stuff. Yes covering "America" seems more par for the course. Bartok seems like a another popular reference (see: ELP, King Crimson). Folk and classical, stuff that showcases the frilly and fussy.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:27 (four years ago) link
90125 is, like i said, this wonderful anomaly, and it's soul roots are already distorted through T Horn and the burgeoning 80s reinvention. there's a good train of thought about how the trite anti-Prog narrative ignored all of that stuff tho, including the Collins/Gabriel stuff we've poked at on this last convo
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 16:35 (four years ago) link
Was there much of an anti-prog narrative in 1980-whatever, though? If anything, prog kind of won!
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:37 (four years ago) link
"Frilly and fussy" = not how I've ever thought of Bartok :P
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:39 (four years ago) link
there's still a banal kneejerk anti-Prog narrative now, depending where you look. the joy of criticism now is there's no papers of record, maybe.
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 16:40 (four years ago) link
xpost OK, not Bartok, lol. Maybe invoked as a signpost of Serious and Complex Thought, then.
It's actually kind of weird how many prog acts not just thrived but hit various commercial peaks in the '80s: Genesis, Gabriel, Yes, King Crimson, Asia, Rush. Marillion? (I've never heard Marillion.)The Police had prog roots, too.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:42 (four years ago) link
Might be a North America/UK divide here? Classic rock radio was definitely still beaming Yes, Tull, Rush, and Floyd across this continent in the 80s, while you'd have to look to 'alternative' or even campus outlets to hear much that was punkier than the Cars or Police. I think things went differently on the other side of the Atlantic.
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:45 (four years ago) link
my prog challops starts from the feeling that it's like the unhappy families in the first sentence of anna karenina (the the defitinion of a game in philosophical investigation): there's no such thing as "typical prog" if this means a characteristic found in every exemplar. if someone happened on ELP and genesis independent of the critical history, would they identify them as versions of the same thing?
of course there's a fvckton of traces of all kinds of black music across prog as a whole, which is no surprise given the patchwork of rival 60s clubs and london scenes its players emerged from
― mark s, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:46 (four years ago) link
the erasure of Prog as a (necessary) joke enemy comes into my "why critics who use the word 'Punk' as an adjective of approbation are worthless" theory but i feel like in real terms people of good ears have moved beyond this, it's a kvetch about a certain kind of basicness that doesn't really matter
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 16:46 (four years ago) link
of the uk-based names in that list, almost all very significantly rebooted themselves at some point between 76 and 80: often with a hiatus following what may well have been a crisis of nerve
(i know nothing abt asia and do not plan to change this)
― mark s, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:48 (four years ago) link
that was members of yes and elp. had at least two huge hits here.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:53 (four years ago) link
there's a massive tangle that could fill a lifetime of knot-pulling. cities vs suburbs - consider that in terms of the vast geographical gaps in north america vs the UK; sophisticates vs conservatives, access to records, class affinities in small towns vs cities, the relationship of both to national music press, shit is complicated sorry i've had a few
before even touching the sexual/gender/class twists in there
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 16:54 (four years ago) link
i mean to quote the Onion, "Rock History Written By the Losers"
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 16:55 (four years ago) link
Idk, is it that hard to hear a resemblance between the band that did "From the Beginning" and the one that did "Supper's Ready"?xps
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:56 (four years ago) link
one thing that might be intersting there sund4r is moving between the things that are consistent between the very first recordings and how they held those motifs when their interests had moved on, like never mind "Supper's Ready" there's still the same uptight thought in ""The Last Domino" somehow.
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 16:59 (four years ago) link
yes my thought experiment fails when knowledgeable but secretly hostile critics select for possible overlap :)
― mark s, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:00 (four years ago) link
also lol what a horrible horrible singer greg lake is
― mark s, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:02 (four years ago) link
i hate him so much
B-b-but he talked to the trees!
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:04 (four years ago) link
No personal hostility! :( The idea was very interesting, which is why I was trying to consider it critically!
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:07 (four years ago) link
lol i always mix that song up with Paint Your Wagon
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:07 (four years ago) link
Lake is cool on that first Crimson record.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:14 (four years ago) link
i was teasing sund4r, don't worry :)
― mark s, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:17 (four years ago) link
while i'm fucking up a Genesis thread that Kanye sample justifies 30 years of KC nerd-post-rock imo
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:19 (four years ago) link
Is he a prog fan? There was also the Anderson/Oldfield sample on the same album.
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:29 (four years ago) link
"fan" is a word innit? i don't know, but it seems to me like there's enough chops on those records to be attractive to a concerned sampler
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:33 (four years ago) link
He also samples Can on a different record. And Alan Parsons Project, iirc.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:35 (four years ago) link
What I hate about "punk" love is what it excludes rather than what it admires, plus, y'know, lazy thought
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:36 (four years ago) link
yeah Lake isn't a bad singer. He has a very clear voice and isnt annoying. He's arguably the least annoying singer Crimson ever had. That said I don't like most ELP; but not because of him.
― akm, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:38 (four years ago) link
I actually quite like his voice but I also don't have the issues with KC's other singers that a lot of people seem to have.
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:41 (four years ago) link
I don't like ELP.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:41 (four years ago) link
It is a truth universally acknowledged that The Nice are infinitely better than ELP.
Don't hste ELP tho.
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:43 (four years ago) link
Greg Lake's voice is awesome. Adrian Belew's voice, on the other hand, should only be heard faintly (and vainly) calling for help from the bottom of an abandoned mine-shaft.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:45 (four years ago) link
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), F
So did Eno! He also spoke to spiders and trees.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:47 (four years ago) link
Eno is my Jesus so other rules are suspended
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:47 (four years ago) link
There are bits and pieces of ELP I enjoy. I own the first LP and throw it on sometimes. Also love "From the Beginning". The Nice = otm, though.
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:49 (four years ago) link
I enjoy their Love Beach nipples.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:51 (four years ago) link
look, who doesn't love a nipple?
― Let's kill the Queen and be legends (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:52 (four years ago) link
For instance, who has ever heard Fruupp?
https://www.whosampled.com/Fruupp/
― Bridge Over Thorley Waters (Tom D.), Friday, 27 March 2020 18:05 (four years ago) link
Watching/listening to the video upthread, I was thinking the band sounded much tighter on the more 'rocking' parts of "Supper's Ready" and some other tricky passages, especially the drumming, then realized it was Bruford instead of Collins. So I guess I like him less not only as a singer but also as a drummer?
― Sund4r, Friday, 27 March 2020 18:31 (four years ago) link
who listens to fruuup? madlib obvs, he's probably got a eidetic memory of german sympho
i know a couple different songs that sample "firth of fifth"; not just "gangster in designer (no concept) but "seek and destroy" by god complex
i can't quite identify what flute prog is sampled on juggaknots' "generally" - idk if it's like genesis or pfm or what - i know i've heard it before, can anyone listen and set my mind at ease?
afu-ra's "gully" samples keith emerson's piano concerto
genesis live does frustrate me because they do tend to be a little sloppy on pocket, "return of the giant hogweed" is a fantastic song but they never really nailed it live... none of them were necessarily what i'd call top-notch instrumentalists!
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 27 March 2020 18:37 (four years ago) link
I was hoping “fan” was a semi-technical term for prog-style sweep picking or something
― brimstead, Friday, 27 March 2020 18:50 (four years ago) link
just saw “fan” and “chops” in same post
"none of them were necessarily what i'd call top-notch instrumentalists" I'd say Banks is but he's also boring
― akm, Friday, 27 March 2020 18:59 (four years ago) link
Banks was notorius for not being able to play what he'd written, certainly when compared to some music school play-it-with-one-hand-while-chomping-on-a-curry-with-the-other type like Wakeman. Collins was probably the best musician of the lot.
― akb23 (Matt #2), Friday, 27 March 2020 19:04 (four years ago) link
banks' overreliance on arpeggios also gets pretty hilarious after a while
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 27 March 2020 19:19 (four years ago) link
― akb23 (Matt #2),
I still laugh at how Rutherford became guitarist AND bassist after Hackett left.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 27 March 2020 19:19 (four years ago) link
none of them were necessarily what i'd call top-notch instrumentalists!
This is nuts. Collins is one of my favorite drummers of all time. I just ... I mean, one of the reasons I like Collins so much is not just his musical personality but how he makes the stuff kind of swing (which is part of that). Bruford is an incredible technical drummer, of course, but swinging is not his forte (see: Earthworks, etc.). For Phil, "Dancing With the Moonlit Knight" is about as good as prog drumming gets. You can find nerds online doing drum covers, which isn't the same thing but allows you to focus on the crazy playing.
And Hackett is nuts-good. I love this Hackett demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er2GHuzlUAY
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 20:28 (four years ago) link
Also, Rutherford was playing bass and guitar (and pedals) from the beginning, just as Banks was playing some guitar, too. I only recently learned (did I post here about it?) how much Rutherford was an early adopter of guitar synths, too, so some of the weird "synth" stuff is sometimes him as well.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 27 March 2020 20:30 (four years ago) link
??? Collins doesn't have chops? that's nuts, listen to Brand X
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 27 March 2020 20:43 (four years ago) link