though we all had dreams of being homeless lute players
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:09 (four years ago) link
mean it's pretty simple; you could condense what i wrote into 2 or 3 sentences
I condensed it into a single phrase, seems I hit it accurately enough? (it sounds like a rock critic trying to convince himself that pop music is “valuable” and “worth attention”), and I was subjected to Ye Olde Series of Sicke Burns! Maybe working thru the dialectic of snark, I'll someday understand how professional music lovers needed to construct a theoretical framework for something as basic as "unapologetically liking pop music (rejecting concepts like ‘guilty pleasure’)."
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:11 (four years ago) link
"trying to convince himself"
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:13 (four years ago) link
i don't know man, go post on RYM or reddit i guess?
― flopson, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:14 (four years ago) link
We didn't construct a theoretical framework for something as basic as "unapologetically liking pop music (rejecting concepts like ‘guilty pleasure’)" -- pedants did.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:14 (four years ago) link
So you guys just gave a name to it (and use it enthusiastically)?
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:15 (four years ago) link
this site was founded by the guy who wrote this column https://pitchfork.com/features/poptimist/
― flopson, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:15 (four years ago) link
and every word of it is absolutely brilliant
i always simply considered poptimism being the critical POV that takes pop music seriously and without condescension and attempts to understand it at the same level of seriousness and scholarliness that critics have long taken rock music. and pushing back against the received wisdom of authenticity and authorship and idk even "real" instruments being what sets certain music apart from others.
― omar little, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:17 (four years ago) link
^yup
― flopson, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:17 (four years ago) link
...which was already happening when critics wrote about disco, Michael Jackson, Madonna, and hip-hop before it crossed over.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:18 (four years ago) link
were people writing like that about neal sedaka or frankie valli?
― flopsy bird (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:22 (four years ago) link
There were a couple considerations of the Carpenters.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:23 (four years ago) link
there was the Abba reconsideration (my least favorite Ludlum novel too btw)
― omar little, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:24 (four years ago) link
have you ever detassled corn by hand?
- bruce springsteen
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:28 (four years ago) link
I think one way to think about this (and the confusion) is that there are actually two critical continuums that cross over one another:
1. The first is whether to take pop music seriously.
2. The second is the choice between what mark k-punk called a romantics of production versus a romantics of reception.
So while all all brands of poptimism and pro-pop writing took/take pop music seriously, item (2) is something that takes on a greater or lesser role in pop-focused criticism depending on the historical moment.
It’s at a low ebb at this point, but that’s perhaps because we’re in a period of strong emphasis on what you might call artistic engagement, which makes it a lot harder to decouple reception from production.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:34 (four years ago) link
but like, we were talking about history ok--you were born in the twentieth century. a kid growing up with parents who were agricultural workers wouldn't expect to live to 5 for most of history. there's no "tractors". people didn't go to "school" and farming wasn't a summer job. people didn't work for their "dad", their dad worked for a large land-owner who paid them subsistence. and if your dad did own his own farm chances are it was small and your parents would have to choose which of your siblings would starve if there was an early frost. i know opening for Hüsker Dü at the Banger's Pavillion in 1997 and then sleeping on StrawDog Sam's basement floor must have been brutal, and i truly feel for you. i just don't think it's that comparable to hardcore child labour if you're lucky enough not to die of typhus, ymmv
lol what is this apples-to-oranges bullshit. the gap you're assessing here is between *different time periods* with different standards of living, not between a farmer + a musician in 2019 or a serf + a musician in 1623.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:58 (four years ago) link
because in 1623 the musician was probably just as likely, if not moreso, to starve and/or die of typhus as a farmer (didn't have anyone to care for them, after all)
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 15 October 2019 20:59 (four years ago) link
back then, the farmers had the pitchforks
― flopsy bird (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 21:06 (four years ago) link
now their states are falling behind on rural internet access so they have no idea what the best new music is
― j., Tuesday, 15 October 2019 21:19 (four years ago) link
pitchfork is dumb, i prefer plow
― flopsy bird (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 21:28 (four years ago) link
i was wondering when you guys were gonna bring settlers of catan into this argument
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 15 October 2019 21:41 (four years ago) link
the 1989 version of angel olsen
edie brickell
― billstevejim, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 03:17 (four years ago) link
Greil Marcus' intro to the reprint of The Aesthetics of Rock talked about how the book was heretical (to whom, I don't know) because it considered Tommy James and the Shondells on the same level that it considered the Beatles or whoever.
― timellison, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 04:32 (four years ago) link
the o.g. poptimist:https://mmiles777.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/lester-abba.jpg
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 04:36 (four years ago) link
tbh I'm just here for M@tt pulling out the True Minnesotan trump card
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:23 (four years ago) link
Hahahahahaha jesus
https://pitchfork.com/features/article/2010s-readers-poll-results/
― does it look like i'm here (jon123), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:26 (four years ago) link
Ugh, my hopes (and faith in Pfork's readership) are cruelly dashed!
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:28 (four years ago) link
26. Kanye West: The Life of Pablo
lmao
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:28 (four years ago) link
I didn't expect Blonde to overtake Channel Orange again.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:29 (four years ago) link
Can't wait for the Pitchfork Readers Poll of the 2020s where Kanye's recording of himself shitting into a Glad bag will take the top spot
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:29 (four years ago) link
kanyekendrick frankkendrickfrankkanye
so close to being a palindrome!
― flopsy bird (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:30 (four years ago) link
followed by the worst Vampire Weekend album
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:31 (four years ago) link
sry bout the dbl post
― flopsy bird (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:31 (four years ago) link
Compare with:
https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=2010s&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:33 (four years ago) link
those pfork lists are the worst lists i have ever seen
― imago, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:34 (four years ago) link
to be clear, if Kendrick had swept the top three spots, I would have been okay with it
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:35 (four years ago) link
Worse than the Guardian list?
xp
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:35 (four years ago) link
if you get rid of everything that isn't kendrick the pfork albums list is improved dramatically tbh
― imago, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:36 (four years ago) link
― pomenitul, Wednesday, October 16, 2019 7:33 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
ooh another corny list
― american bradass (BradNelson), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:37 (four years ago) link
Damn, wish I could find my predictions for the readers poll results on this epic thread. I really don't think I was far off.
― kitchen person, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:38 (four years ago) link
Kogan's take - that this WAS a common pov for 60s rock critics and the 'progressive' narrative was the more populist view - seems at least as believable to me: https://koganbot.livejournal.com/164709.html
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:39 (four years ago) link
Yep.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:41 (four years ago) link
Interesting predictions so far. I'm guessing it will be a repetitive all male top 10. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it looked something like this
1. Kanye West - MBDTF2. Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp a Butterfly3. Frank Ocean - Blonde4. Kanye West - Yeezus5. Frank Ocean - Channel Orange6. Bon Iver - Bon Iver7. Kendrick Lamar - Good Kid8. Kendrick Lamar - Damn9. Radiohead - A Moon Shaped Pool10. Sufjan Stevens - Carrie & Lowell
With some variation of Tame Impala, Vampire Weekend and Tyler The Creator just outside. Not sure who will be the highest female artist. Grimes, Solange or Mitski maybe?
― kitchen person, Tuesday, September 24, 2019
Ok, so I wasn't far off
1. Kanye West: My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy2. Kendrick Lamar: To Pimp a Butterfly3. Frank Ocean: Blonde4. Kendrick Lamar: good kid, m.A.A.d city5. Frank Ocean: Channel Orange6. Kanye West: Yeezus7. Vampire Weekend: Modern Vampires of the City8. Sufjan Stevens: Carrie & Lowell9. Arcade Fire: The Suburbs10. Lorde: Melodrama11. Tame Impala: Currents12. Bon Iver: Bon Iver13. Radiohead: A Moon Shaped Pool14. Beyoncé: Lemonade15. LCD Soundsystem: This Is Happening
― kitchen person, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:43 (four years ago) link
although maybe Marcus wasn't saying that Meltzer's heresy was against other critics tbf
xp to self
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:45 (four years ago) link
Anyway, yes, 'poptimism vs rockism' is a fairly simple concept if you already agree with a few premises, I will grant. In the end, my problem is probably just that I am not that optimistic about pop.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:52 (four years ago) link
“It’s all music, man.”[this is actually my pov, despite the self-mocking scare quotes]
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 14:59 (four years ago) link
death grips at #20 is not a bad placement!
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 16 October 2019 15:17 (four years ago) link
Anyone else vote in this thing? I would like to peruse your lists now.
1. What are the 10 best albums of 2010-2019?#1 : Dawn Richard: Blackheart#2 : Frida Hyvönen: To The Soul#3 : Girlpool: Before The World Was Big#4 : Julia Holter: Aviary#5 : A Tribe Called Quest: We got it from Here... Thank You 4 Your service#6 : Swervedriver: I Wasn't Born To Lose You#7 : Owen Pallett: Heartland#8 : Neneh Cherry: Blank Project#9 : Kelela: Take Me Apart#10 : Pistol Annies: Interstate Gospel
2. What are the 10 best songs of 2010 - 2019?#1 : PJ Harvey: "The Last Living Rose"#2 : The Radio Dept.: "Can't Be Guilty"#3 : KING: "Native Land"#4 : Deerhunter: "Memory Boy"#5 : D'Angelo: "Another Life"#6 : Yves Tumor: "Noid"#7 : Susanne Sundfør: "Fade Away"#8 : Jazmine Sullivan: "Let It Burn"#9 : Danny Brown: "25 Bucks" [ft. Purity Ring]#10 : Sasami: "Not The Time"
(I read "the best" as "your favorite")
― geoffreyess, Wednesday, 16 October 2019 15:25 (four years ago) link