pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

hey flopson yeah I know I worked with them at the green giant canning factory and walking beans

though we all had dreams of being homeless lute players

mean it's pretty simple; you could condense what i wrote into 2 or 3 sentences

I condensed it into a single phrase, seems I hit it accurately enough? (it sounds like a rock critic trying to convince himself that pop music is “valuable” and “worth attention”), and I was subjected to Ye Olde Series of Sicke Burns! Maybe working thru the dialectic of snark, I'll someday understand how professional music lovers needed to construct a theoretical framework for something as basic as "unapologetically liking pop music (rejecting concepts like ‘guilty pleasure’)."

"trying to convince himself"

i don't know man, go post on RYM or reddit i guess?

We didn't construct a theoretical framework for something as basic as "unapologetically liking pop music (rejecting concepts like ‘guilty pleasure’)" -- pedants did.

So you guys just gave a name to it (and use it enthusiastically)?

this site was founded by the guy who wrote this column https://pitchfork.com/features/poptimist/

and every word of it is absolutely brilliant

i always simply considered poptimism being the critical POV that takes pop music seriously and without condescension and attempts to understand it at the same level of seriousness and scholarliness that critics have long taken rock music. and pushing back against the received wisdom of authenticity and authorship and idk even "real" instruments being what sets certain music apart from others.

^yup

...which was already happening when critics wrote about disco, Michael Jackson, Madonna, and hip-hop before it crossed over.

were people writing like that about neal sedaka or frankie valli?

There were a couple considerations of the Carpenters.

there was the Abba reconsideration (my least favorite Ludlum novel too btw)

have you ever detassled corn by hand?

- bruce springsteen

I think one way to think about this (and the confusion) is that there are actually two critical continuums that cross over one another:

1. The first is whether to take pop music seriously.

2. The second is the choice between what mark k-punk called a romantics of production versus a romantics of reception.

So while all all brands of poptimism and pro-pop writing took/take pop music seriously, item (2) is something that takes on a greater or lesser role in pop-focused criticism depending on the historical moment.

It’s at a low ebb at this point, but that’s perhaps because we’re in a period of strong emphasis on what you might call artistic engagement, which makes it a lot harder to decouple reception from production.

but like, we were talking about history ok--you were born in the twentieth century. a kid growing up with parents who were agricultural workers wouldn't expect to live to 5 for most of history. there's no "tractors". people didn't go to "school" and farming wasn't a summer job. people didn't work for their "dad", their dad worked for a large land-owner who paid them subsistence. and if your dad did own his own farm chances are it was small and your parents would have to choose which of your siblings would starve if there was an early frost. i know opening for Hüsker Dü at the Banger's Pavillion in 1997 and then sleeping on StrawDog Sam's basement floor must have been brutal, and i truly feel for you. i just don't think it's that comparable to hardcore child labour if you're lucky enough not to die of typhus, ymmv

lol what is this apples-to-oranges bullshit. the gap you're assessing here is between *different time periods* with different standards of living, not between a farmer + a musician in 2019 or a serf + a musician in 1623.

because in 1623 the musician was probably just as likely, if not moreso, to starve and/or die of typhus as a farmer (didn't have anyone to care for them, after all)

back then, the farmers had the pitchforks

now their states are falling behind on rural internet access so they have no idea what the best new music is

pitchfork is dumb, i prefer plow

i was wondering when you guys were gonna bring settlers of catan into this argument

the 1989 version of angel olsen

edie brickell

were people writing like that about neal sedaka or frankie valli?

Greil Marcus' intro to the reprint of The Aesthetics of Rock talked about how the book was heretical (to whom, I don't know) because it considered Tommy James and the Shondells on the same level that it considered the Beatles or whoever.

the o.g. poptimist:

https://mmiles777.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/lester-abba.jpg

tbh I'm just here for M@tt pulling out the True Minnesotan trump card

Hahahahahaha jesus

https://pitchfork.com/features/article/2010s-readers-poll-results/

Ugh, my hopes (and faith in Pfork's readership) are cruelly dashed!

26. Kanye West: The Life of Pablo

lmao

I didn't expect Blonde to overtake Channel Orange again.

Can't wait for the Pitchfork Readers Poll of the 2020s where Kanye's recording of himself shitting into a Glad bag will take the top spot

kanye
kendrick
frank
kendrick
frank
kanye

so close to being a palindrome!

kanye
kendrick
frank
kendrick
frank
kanye

so close to being a palindrome!

followed by the worst Vampire Weekend album

sry bout the dbl post

Compare with:

https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=2010s&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=

those pfork lists are the worst lists i have ever seen

to be clear, if Kendrick had swept the top three spots, I would have been okay with it

Worse than the Guardian list?

xp

if you get rid of everything that isn't kendrick the pfork albums list is improved dramatically tbh

Compare with:

https://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=2010s&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=

― pomenitul, Wednesday, October 16, 2019 7:33 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ooh another corny list

Damn, wish I could find my predictions for the readers poll results on this epic thread. I really don't think I was far off.

Greil Marcus' intro to the reprint of The Aesthetics of Rock talked about how the book was heretical (to whom, I don't know) because it considered Tommy James and the Shondells on the same level that it considered the Beatles or whoever.

Kogan's take - that this WAS a common pov for 60s rock critics and the 'progressive' narrative was the more populist view - seems at least as believable to me: https://koganbot.livejournal.com/164709.html

ooh another corny list

Yep.

Interesting predictions so far. I'm guessing it will be a repetitive all male top 10. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it looked something like this

1. Kanye West - MBDTF
2. Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp a Butterfly
3. Frank Ocean - Blonde
4. Kanye West - Yeezus
5. Frank Ocean - Channel Orange
6. Bon Iver - Bon Iver
7. Kendrick Lamar - Good Kid
8. Kendrick Lamar - Damn
9. Radiohead - A Moon Shaped Pool
10. Sufjan Stevens - Carrie & Lowell

With some variation of Tame Impala, Vampire Weekend and Tyler The Creator just outside. Not sure who will be the highest female artist. Grimes, Solange or Mitski maybe?

― kitchen person, Tuesday, September 24, 2019

Ok, so I wasn't far off

1. Kanye West: My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy
2. Kendrick Lamar: To Pimp a Butterfly
3. Frank Ocean: Blonde
4. Kendrick Lamar: good kid, m.A.A.d city
5. Frank Ocean: Channel Orange
6. Kanye West: Yeezus
7. Vampire Weekend: Modern Vampires of the City
8. Sufjan Stevens: Carrie & Lowell
9. Arcade Fire: The Suburbs
10. Lorde: Melodrama
11. Tame Impala: Currents
12. Bon Iver: Bon Iver
13. Radiohead: A Moon Shaped Pool
14. Beyoncé: Lemonade
15. LCD Soundsystem: This Is Happening

although maybe Marcus wasn't saying that Meltzer's heresy was against other critics tbf

xp to self

Anyway, yes, 'poptimism vs rockism' is a fairly simple concept if you already agree with a few premises, I will grant. In the end, my problem is probably just that I am not that optimistic about pop.

“It’s all music, man.”

[this is actually my pov, despite the self-mocking scare quotes]

death grips at #20 is not a bad placement!