Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

I had that with Daydream Nation - I never heard 'Exterminator Jr.' until I got the CD years later.

Anyway, the problem with Dirty is the sequencing, not the length. 'Purr' and 'Creme Brulee' feel like bonus tracks after 'JC', which would have been the perfect album closer.

Might be its own thread but when my friend gave me a copy of the Beatles' White Album it was missing "Yer Blues" (I guess she hated it?). Very weird hearing this missing track when I bought the album years later, like a bonus track placed at track 2

Back on SY: I'd definitely find room for "Genetic" on Dirty, though I have no clue what I'd cut!

alex otm, none of the songs on Dirty can be cut.

re: Genetic, there's a POLL for that.

Dirty was my first SY album but never a favorite. That it seems overlong is odd given that there are several SY albums that are longer but arguably benefit from it (Daydream Nation, Washing Machine, A Thousand Leaves). I'd attribute it to the relative lack of sprawl on Dirty, which feels tight and constrained. Despite "Theresa's Sound World" and "Wish Fulfillment," there isn't much breathing space/interiority on Dirty — those Mike Kelley stuffed animals tear away at bedroom secrets. Experimental Jet Set goes even further in terms of constraint, but there the songs approach miniatures and are more abstracted and dreamlike; Goo is more pure fun and less relentless. The relentlessness I think serves Dirty as a political record; speaking for myself, if I find the experience exhausting it may probably bespeak a certain discomfort with the "work" of politics. (The exclusion of "Genetic," and Lee nearly leaving the band because of it, seems a mark of its political character as well.)

Tbh I'd probably get rid of Nic Fit and Creme Brulee, though I'd be bummed to lose that great couplet: "last night I dreamed I kissed Neil Young/if I was a boy yeah it would be fun" xp

relative lack of sprawl on Dirty, which feels tight and constrained

I think there is some confusion, I do think "Nic Fit" is a fantastic song, but the Sonic Youth cover is watered down & at a middle aged friendly tempo which shows the band's weakness (no offense to Steve Shelley & KimG, but that's probably the fastest they've ever attempted to play and it shows lol).

And reading some of the responses upthread, it may be may have been many people's first exposure to hardcore? So I guess that may be a net positive.

Mods!

we had that discussion on "nic fit" before. i have listened to the original and i don't think sonic youth's version is watered down at all. the original isn't faster neither, the shouting is quite thin, thurston's voice is much stronger. and sonic youth's version overall to me sounds much more powerful and "evil" than the untouchables one. just my 2 cents.

but that is what makes dirty so great. that it is focussed and not meandering. you are constructing a problem where there is none. dirty is not too long at all, at that time they were just overflowing with ideas they had to put on record. do you also reproach the beatles the excess length of the white album?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYUEbqD_rAI

xp. i read your post up to the end but i must admit that i didn't really get that remark about dirty being a political record. concerning dirty i had always assumed the most political part of it was that it was their debut on a major. and "youth against fascism" of course. but i do not see what would be so bad about it. to my shame i must admit that i don't really think about an album being political or not. that is not a criterion for me to evaluate music. only when the political is too obvious, it usually turns me off. like certain protest singers.

something else. the best german translation of sprawl i could find referred to the open land being cluttered by new buildings, that is not exactly what you mean, is it?

that's bad sprawl—in the u.s. it happens when cities just expand into their outer regions by making inefficient use of the land and building flat and not organizing anything. especially commercial areas where they just string everything along a highway.

concerning dirty i had always assumed the most political part of it was that it was their debut on a major.

Goo was the major label debut.

there isn't much breathing space/interiority on Dirty

This sounds right to me, but I'm not sure why. It sounds to me like with the increased fidelity, there's more treble? Somehow, the analog warmth of Daydream Nation feels like it's gone to me, but it doesn't on Goo.

The Sprawl is a reference to Neuromancer (William Gibson).

I don’t think any SY records were digitally recorded but I’m prepared to be wrong. But Goo was overdubbed and mixed at like some 48 track high end studio (Sorceror Sound) after the Greene St sessions with Sansano. Daydream was also Greene St, but Sister was Sear Sound of course. They went back to Sear for EJSTANS (cf the legend that they recorded over the Sister master tape).

Dirty was recorded with Butch Vig at a studio called the Magic Shop.

Dirty has an undeniable political element; besides "YAF" there's also "Chapel Hill" and I def feel like "Swimsuit Issue" works as a protest song. But even a lot of the other story songs have potential political subtexts. That said, for all the dismissals of this album over the years as being lyrically juvenile, there's actually a ton of stuff going on here, only some of which are gestures towards a heightened political awareness

Goo was the major label debut.

― timellison, Sunday, October 13, 2019 3:49 PM (one hour ago)

Daydream Nation was released on Enigma which, by 1989, was distributed by EMI/Capitol who also had a significant stake in the ownership by 1988. You could argue that DN was the major label debut, and that their DGC debut Goo was their first under a major label contract.

xp i would like to say that 'political' has as much to do with the scale and form of the songs. (but i'm too tired to expand on how rn.)

Yeah, I don't know, Al. Maybe Daydream Nation had decent distribution. I bought it in an independent shop.

I bought the cassette at a Sam Goodys I’m the Livingston Mall. It had serous distribution.

I mean, I remember buying SST albums at the Wherehouse. I don't think of it as a major label release.

I got it at a mall in Columbus, MS, first SY record I'd seen in wide release.

I.R.S. was distributed by MCA, but there was a reason why R.E.M. signed to Warner Brothers. Same thing with SY on Geffen - I don't think there was a real comparison.

Daydream Nation, if not the major label debut, was certainly the breakthrough. I learned about it via a Rolling Stone review; I doubt they reviewed anything by the band previous to that. I imagine the EMI distribution helped in that regard.

Any cursory reading of the press around Goo at time of release would show that it was considered the major label debut, they must have addressed it in a dozen interviews.

I mean yeah DN was everywhere but the politics of Goo were quite the hot topic at the time

IIRC, Enigma screwed them out of royalties on DN, which figured into the move.

Daydream Nation had huge distro but definitely wasn't considered "major label". Goo on DGC was a big deal.

I would happily drop “Swimsuit Issue,” “JC,” and “Purr” from Dirty.

It’s a good album!... but does feel like a bit of a monolith.

monoliths should be worshipped!!

My denomination has excised “Shop-ping at Max Fields! Power for you to wield!” from the liturgy.

splitters!!

Are you really hating on JC in public?

"JC" is SY Top 5, easy. Anyway, good discussion on Dirty. I fall somewhere in the middle. I bought Goo first but Dirty is when I became a fan and yet - despite my level of teenage obsession - I never managed to absorb all of Dirty, especially the second half. At this point, if needed, I would cut most of the Kim songs (mainly "Swimsuit Issue", "Orange Rolls" and perhaps "Drunken Butterfly"), which feel kinda juvenile to 40sth me. But I think these songs could have been split into two albums

Daydream Nation wasn’t on a major in the UK, Blast First put it out.

one thing that i've been puzzled by while reading this thread is that a lot of people dislike Goo, an album of theirs which i unreservedly love, but maybe this is because it's the first one i purchased? it totally blew my mind and changed my life, tbh.

i really like Dirty, but understand the feeling of it as a monolith— it's not just the songs themselves, but the production just wears me out in a way that no other SY album does. this is fine, but i find it to be one of my least-listened to "good" albums.

Dirty was recorded with Butch Vig at a studio called the Magic Shop.

iirc the new york episode of the Foo Fighters documentary series a couple of years back was filmed at Magic Shop, seemed like a funky little space

Daydream Nation wasn’t on a major in the UK, Blast First put it out.

Paul Smith, who ran Blast First, was also a big part of Enigma, I think, which might explain that. But post-Daydream is the proper Major Label era. The band were courted by lots of major labels, and even had a weird, weird meeting with Tommy Mottola, who said he had a button on his desk that would make them superstars.

also, am i the only one on here who really likes Lee and Lee's songs? i know they can border on lame and silly sometimes because of his whole beat-worship lyrical style, but it's not like Thurston is a great lyricist either.

Lee is the weird uncle of SY and unimpeachable

Lee is great, Wish Fulfillment is a jam

Lee's songs are the best!

“JC” is considered top-five SY? Weird, it sounds like filler to me.

another huge Lee fan over here but I'm still not sure "Genetic" would have worked on the album

"i actually like the lee songs the best" is a long-running SY challop (doesn't mean it isn't true)

^^

heh, i was just talking to a friend about goo yesterday (heavily influenced by it popping up on this thread recently) and found myself basically saying that. i smdh at myself

i don't like the Lee songs the best, but i did write an entire sequence of poems based on Lee's tracks, so i have a deep appreciation for them.