pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

poptimism as i remember it was initially about recognizing songs that were often not even really popular in the world of pop, not about making sure the most popular songs in the world were critically acclaimed

― J0rdan S., Monday, October 7, 2019 5:36 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

lines are getting a bit crossed here; 'call me maybe', 'gagnman style', 'old town road' are all legitimately great songs that imo should be on any pop-oriented top 200 songs list. my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

NB: I've just mixed a Fernet and gin and have to watch the new Soderbergh tonight, so I'm ornery.

Just saying, one has little to expect from a website that hasn't been paying attention to pop in forever.

In a sense criticizing Pfork for not paying attention to obvious pop classics during the moment of the site's most fervent embrace of artists it once treated like lepers means that the site still has some defensiveness to give up.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, October 7, 2019 11:43 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This ~deep cut ~ is getting at the same thing. The thing being: why are we talking about p4k and their rankings so much?

my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

or in the Spotify era they avoided the Big Hit in favor of the more obscure album track

feel like poptimism was a combination of both j0rd’s and alfred’s definitions, embodied best by late-‘00s idolator

obv we don’t go six months on ilx without arguing about what poptimism is

There comes a point when a proto-poptimist has to realize that many people aren't gonna stream Empire Burlesque and Alexander O'Neal at all.

i think everyone agrees on the definition; alfred's and jordan's are perfectly consistent. i also think this list is pretty ideal as an example of an impt change in the structure and texture of poptimism and think it's one of the most relevant critical frames w which to think abt this list but YMMV

lines are getting a bit crossed here; 'call me maybe', 'gagnman style', 'old town road' are all legitimately great songs that imo should be on any pop-oriented top 200 songs list. my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

― flopson, Monday, October 7, 2019 5:53 PM (three minutes ago)bookmarkflaglink

yeah that's fair -- i would agree that the view of popular music as presented by this list is pretty wonky

lines are getting a bit crossed here; 'call me maybe', 'gagnman style', 'old town road' are all legitimately great songs that imo should be on any pop-oriented top 200 songs list. my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

― flopson, Monday, 7 October 2019 21:53 (seventeen seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Kind of inevitable that once you persuade rock critics to take pop music seriously they then proceed to treat it like the other music they listen to.

But it's also the case that 10s pop hasn't had many overarching narratives that one would be inclined to rally around like the previous decades - like I'm not sure that even ILM's pop fans want to champion any of EDM or tropical (except me lol) or Chainsmokers-style spotify'n'chill as an amazing thing that happened to music - so it's not surprising that the rock crit apparatus basically gravitates towards pop that otherwise works the way the other music critics listen to works.

otoh hand certain things don't change: the Jansenists who work at my college radio station wonder why the hell I write about Sheryl Crow at Pitchfork.

pfork: "TALKED ABOUT MUSIC WILL PREVAIL. . . or just get talked about some more lol who cares how about a craft beer"

xps Tim- finding gems in edm, tropitcal, spotify-n-chill seems like one thing a good poptist criticism in the 2010s should be doing

yep

Flopson I did that but almost no one is interested

AKA Neiked’s “Sexual” didn’t even make this list.

yes but lists are about finding consensus not gems

AKA Neiked’s “Sexual” didn’t even make this list.

― Tim F, Monday, October 7, 2019 6:07 PM (twenty-eight seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

one of the greatest songs of all time :)

gems are for year-end lists, decade-end lists are broader by nature

xp

yes but lists are about finding consensus not gems

― J0rdan S., Monday, October 7, 2019 6:07 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

sure but p4k has the power to create consensus. i mean why is a mixtape track you, tpp and i were freaking out over in 2012 on this list?

i hope they reveal individual ballots

It's not a binary?

i mean why is a mixtape track you, tpp and i were freaking out over in 2012 on this list?

― flopson, Monday, October 7, 2019 5:09 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Hmmm very suspicious ... is Jordan defending this list in exchange for rankings 🧐

what im trying to say is there could be more 'good poptimist' gems on this list if p4k had prioritized good poptimism over rockist poptimism 2.0 as an editorial vision throughout the decade. maybe the list is as good as it gets as a reflection of its editorial vision, i'm not trying to argue about that per se (although i think bringing more ilxors to the table would've been a good start--what happened to 5 years ago when all of you were writing for them weekly all of a suden?)

there's an editorial reality to listmaking which is that you're working with a fixed number of spots and you can't 100% truthfully represent consensus. the raw voting data for the top 200 of this list would probably return 10-12 kendrick lamar and drake songs, a handful of robyn songs, multiple carly rae songs, etc. but publishing a list like that would be boring for the reader, so you start artificially paring back the list and plucking songs as replacements so that you end up presenting a curated consensus. artists eventually fall into tiers of sorts where they get more songs as a representative percentage -- more like an electoral college approach than popular vote. so how do you represent an artist? i'm surprised "call me maybe" was left out, but if you were going to pick 1 song to represent what carly rae jepsen was to the music of the 2010s, you *could* make a compelling case for "run away with me." i'd personally make a poptimist case for the weeknd's "can't feel my face" but i also get why, if you were picking a song to be the stand in for "the weekend," you might pick "the morning." i would agree that the "curated consensus" aspect of this list is pretty wack/corny from a taste perspective (clairo etc) but it's also how you end up w/ something like "hold yuh" in the top 50, which feels more true to the spirt of poptimism as i interpret it than anything involving bruno mars

xpost yeah flopson perhaps any ire/hand-wringing would be better directed not at these lists but at the failure of critics to build the consensus necessary for certain kinds of music to have a chance to make these lists in the first place.

A lot of factors play into that but one of the biggest is probably today's much stronger critical emphasis on surrounding narrative context, which inevitably results in a critical de-emphasis on 'gems' (whether commercially successful or otherwise). It's possible to buck this trend (see the Singles Jukebox) but it requires a lot of effort and/or conscious niche positioning.

a thread for "edm/tropical house gems" might be good, bc the whole tropical house wave has been so underwhelming compared to the potential it seemed to have

the p4k list did have "levels" as a token edm hit i guess

m surprised "call me maybe" was left out, but if you were going to pick 1 song to represent what carly rae jepsen was to the music of the 2010s, you *could* make a compelling case for "run away with me."

Really?! I love both songs, but then CRJ has always coded weird to me. Do you congratulate her for the unabashed world-conquering hit or point readers toward the opening track on an album far fewer people bought? Sometimes you pick the obvious choice but make a compelling case.

my beefs w/ the list are in the selection of delegates -- i.e. picking "monster" over "mercy" or even "clique" as the representative for "kanye west posse cut" presents a vision of the decade's music that i think is both wack and wrong

ahh yes, the gerrymandering of the pfork lists. nice.

what's the SCOTUS of poptimism

xxxpost this is not all a flight from Eden story.

On one level, I look back fondly on the era of Tom E writing an article where Jessica Simpson explains pop intertextuality, and the associated prospect that people might get very excited about a song like "I Think I'm In Love With You", which would seem odd today.

On another level, the prevailing condition that made that possible was a blanket dismissal of pop almost across the board which effectively levelled the poptimist playing field (such that championing a song by Jessica Simpson and championing a song by Destiny's Child seemed like the same critical manoeuvre) (indeed, that article played on the general assumption that Jessica was not responsible for her art in order to maximise its enjoyment value).

I whether the kind of artistic narrative that Beyonce has sought to forge in the past decade would have worked nearly so well in the previous decade.

*I wonder whether...

v disappointed each entry didn't come with its own craft beer pairing suggestion, honestly. how can i properly enjoy my solange without a bottle of floral suds?

I whether the kind of artistic narrative that Beyonce has sought to forge in the past decade would have worked nearly so well in the previous decade.

― Tim F, Monday, October 7, 2019

isn't this a bit of a circular argument? In the 2000s Beyonce quietly recorded albums that created the conditions in which future critics would appraise her?

Really?! I love both songs, but then CRJ has always coded weird to me. Do you congratulate her for the unabashed world-conquering hit or point readers toward the opening track on an album far fewer people bought? Sometimes you pick the obvious choice but make a compelling case.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, October 7, 2019 6:23 PM (two minutes ago)

i don't really rate "run away with me" but it is the song that turned her into the queer internet's meme queen, which ime explains the long arc of her career more than "call me maybe" does

many xps- gyptian is one of my favs on the list :) 19yo me started this thread gyptian - holdyuh

tbc i don't think the list should just be a c/p of the billboard top 50 + some indie anthems--but i do think puja did pull some editorial crimes (of corniness) in 'presenting the curated consensus'

yeah I guess it's me because Frank Ocean means nothing to this member of the queer internet

xpost

i don't think major label pop artists going album oriented in the 00s would have worked anywhere near as well then bc it feels like social media has played a huge part in allowing those to be successful even as radio has increasingly ignored them, though maybe im conflating those issues idk

there's an editorial reality to listmaking which is that you're working with a fixed number of spots and you can't 100% truthfully represent consensus.

please flopson don't hurt us when you drop arrow's impossibility theorem into the thread

also lol to austin complaining about gerrymandering, do you really want even more drake songs on it

today's much stronger critical emphasis on surrounding narrative context, which inevitably results in a critical de-emphasis on 'gems'

rip teh eternal quest for jams

please flopson don't hurt us when you drop arrow's impossibility theorem into the thread

― j., Monday, October 7, 2019 6:36 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they should absolutely implement quadratic voting

we should do that for ILX polls too fyi

isn't this a bit of a circular argument? In the 2000s Beyonce quietly recorded albums that created the conditions in which future critics would appraise her?

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 7 October 2019 22:31 (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

no and yes:

1) Dangerously in Love is not Lemonade; even B'Day does not have that aura of Serious Artist.

2) It's obviously the case that the 00s created the conditions for the 00s, which is also kind of my point - poptimism 1.0 was a reaction to an era when such reappraisals were at a low ebb, such that even if Beyonce had recorded Lemonade at that time it probably would have been largely ignored critically. Poptimism 2.0 in turn was a natural response to pop music being seen as more capable of credibility.

Also what ufo said about social media

i don't think major label pop artists going album oriented in the 00s would have worked anywhere near as well then bc it feels like social media has played a huge part in allowing those to be successful even as radio has increasingly ignored them, though maybe im conflating those issues idk

― ufo,

Also: the events of 2014 and a certain election in 2016

interesting how the themes of the write-ups in the the '00s end of decade list mirror those of the '10s list--technology/social media, the dance between rap, pop and indie, economic distress, racism--yet also seem so quaint given how intensely all those trends have accelerated

For my taste a few of the blurbs found few musical correlatives for the politics, but chacon son goute.