pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

most indie rock songs forego the super bass for the regular bass, that's the problem

Props to the fork for dishing out a list that everyone on ILM can get worked up about, albeit not quite for the same reasons.

'P4k dishes out, ILM gets worked up' a perpetual invocation of one of the many things wrong with ILM, not P4K imo.

P4k was a formative read when I was in my late teens/early 20s and it plugged me into some cool shit that I may not have discovered otherwise.

lol at ILM complaining about not enough indie rock on a P4K list

all-encompassing end of decade lists made at the end of that decade are not that exciting in general. the 're-discovered classics' haven't been rediscovered yet, and it's mainly gonna be stuff that people went crazy for at the time, which will inevitably lead to more popular stuff getting the nod. i'd be a lot more curious to see what p4k's 00s list looks like with this staff of writers.

"indie rock" and "poptimism" are two of the same terrible thing.

"phrases in scare quotes"?

no, just that they represent attitude and image over actual music.

I don't even understand the point of this new-fangled poptimism that can't get behind shit like "Call Me Maybe" and "Uptown Funk" and "Old Town Road"

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Monday, October 7, 2019 2:53 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

yup

no, just that they represent attitude and image over actual music.

There's no such thing as 'actual music', doncha know?

Sadly true ever since Grand Funk Railroad stopped putting out albums.

too often, the p4k blurbs focus on the narrative surrounding music, ignoring the bong-rattling bass and competent drumwork that makes music so special.

don't forget the wild shirtless lyrics of Charlie XCX

their selection of charli xcx songs is terrible middle brow popism. im gonna flip my shit if sucker isn't on the album list

Yeah, I’m not a Charli XCX aficionado, but I loved that song “Boom Clap” — is that truly not even one of her best / most listworthy?

yeah wow at "call me maybe" not being on there, wtf

also very confused at "riding for the feeling" being at 11, nothing against it but i would never have expected it that high

otherwise the list seems pretty much what i'd expect barring some weird omissions like no token k-pop track - would have at least expected "i am the best" or somethin

remember when pitchfork loved black metal that one year? lol

pfork: not a music publication.

this list is very........ basic

i smelled the pumpkin spice as i was clicking through it this morning.

or like, alt-basic. or something

Possibly not basic enough

remember when pitchfork loved black metal that one year? lol

― Paul Ponzi, Monday, October 7, 2019 2:13 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

pitchfork still reviews metal, metal tracks almost never end up in year-end tracks lists, which i think is fair bc it's a pretty album-oriented genre, you remain the most cliché-ass pfork hater on this board

Show No Mercy column NEVER FORGET

to balance that out, including "run away with me" but not "call me maybe" induced heavy eyerolls in this pfork contributor. a "perfect pop" song vs. a perfect pop song ("perfect pop" copyright tom ewing)

no call me maybe, no gangnam style, no old town road

its interesting bc whoever they let do sunday review still has the feel for poptimism done right. maybe it's just a problem of aggregating up the hivemind

Also, the once insta-classic, now deeply problematic pop jams "Fuck You," "Blurred Lines" and "Mo Bamba" are all absent

don't even understand the point of this new-fangled poptimism that can't get behind shit like "Call Me Maybe" and "Uptown Funk" and "Old Town Road"

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Monday, October 7, 2019 2:53 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

yup

― flopson, Monday, October 7, 2019 4:34 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago)

poptimism as i remember it was initially about recognizing songs that were often not even really popular in the world of pop, not about making sure the most popular songs in the world were critically acclaimed

like Pavement's "Cut Your Hair"?

lol

I thought poptimism, among other things, meant the elimination of shame and defensiveness from writing about pop musics, which critics for decades have essayed, hence my contempt for the concept.

poptimism as i remember it was initially about recognizing songs that were often not even really popular in the world of pop, not about making sure the most popular songs in the world were critically acclaimed

no, just that they represent attitude and image over actual music.

it was about everyone having to dress and grow a beard like Tom's, according to Austin

In a sense criticizing Pfork for not paying attention to obvious pop classics during the moment of the site's most fervent embrace of artists it once treated like lepers means that the site still has some defensiveness to give up.

Well, yeah. Why expect a site to give up their particular defensiveness though? Why expect p4k to "get with the times"? They've not proven to do or having done so previously, so why would they now?

Shoo, rhetorical questions!

get with the '10s

The POV of an aging pop writer who once worked as editor for a site that covered the music Pfork didn't vs the new Pfork writer in her twenties who grew up in a stronger ecumenical spirit but has had to grow up professionally in the performative world of social media. I may be the one who's too forgiving.

according to Austin

wrong again, MARGE

also: remember when pfork's tagline was "GOOD MUSIC WILL PREVAIL" so much for that

poptimism as i remember it was initially about recognizing songs that were often not even really popular in the world of pop, not about making sure the most popular songs in the world were critically acclaimed

― J0rdan S., Monday, October 7, 2019 5:36 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

lines are getting a bit crossed here; 'call me maybe', 'gagnman style', 'old town road' are all legitimately great songs that imo should be on any pop-oriented top 200 songs list. my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

NB: I've just mixed a Fernet and gin and have to watch the new Soderbergh tonight, so I'm ornery.

Just saying, one has little to expect from a website that hasn't been paying attention to pop in forever.

In a sense criticizing Pfork for not paying attention to obvious pop classics during the moment of the site's most fervent embrace of artists it once treated like lepers means that the site still has some defensiveness to give up.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, October 7, 2019 11:43 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This ~deep cut ~ is getting at the same thing. The thing being: why are we talking about p4k and their rankings so much?

my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

or in the Spotify era they avoided the Big Hit in favor of the more obscure album track

feel like poptimism was a combination of both j0rd’s and alfred’s definitions, embodied best by late-‘00s idolator

obv we don’t go six months on ilx without arguing about what poptimism is

There comes a point when a proto-poptimist has to realize that many people aren't gonna stream Empire Burlesque and Alexander O'Neal at all.

i think everyone agrees on the definition; alfred's and jordan's are perfectly consistent. i also think this list is pretty ideal as an example of an impt change in the structure and texture of poptimism and think it's one of the most relevant critical frames w which to think abt this list but YMMV

lines are getting a bit crossed here; 'call me maybe', 'gagnman style', 'old town road' are all legitimately great songs that imo should be on any pop-oriented top 200 songs list. my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

― flopson, Monday, October 7, 2019 5:53 PM (three minutes ago)bookmarkflaglink

yeah that's fair -- i would agree that the view of popular music as presented by this list is pretty wonky

lines are getting a bit crossed here; 'call me maybe', 'gagnman style', 'old town road' are all legitimately great songs that imo should be on any pop-oriented top 200 songs list. my criticism is more along the lines of whiney's poptimism 2.0 thread, where media poptimism matured into a version of rockism where critics cottoned to pop by album-oriented artists with strong cross-over aesthetics and marketing, at the exclusion of trad pop acts

― flopson, Monday, 7 October 2019 21:53 (seventeen seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Kind of inevitable that once you persuade rock critics to take pop music seriously they then proceed to treat it like the other music they listen to.

But it's also the case that 10s pop hasn't had many overarching narratives that one would be inclined to rally around like the previous decades - like I'm not sure that even ILM's pop fans want to champion any of EDM or tropical (except me lol) or Chainsmokers-style spotify'n'chill as an amazing thing that happened to music - so it's not surprising that the rock crit apparatus basically gravitates towards pop that otherwise works the way the other music critics listen to works.