Never accept the "just make money from live shows" argument from anyone who hasn't carried a drumset and Ampeg bass cab up a narrow flight of stairs
or lived in a place which used to get cool up+coming bands coming through in the 90s when 15 of the 20 people who turned up might have bought a record and/or told their friends, and now gets 0 cool bands coming through because bands save the live shows for established fan bases in big cities now they can no longer break even by treating them as loss leaders for the album
― a passing spacecadet, Monday, 29 July 2019 19:52 (four years ago) link
^^^ this
Of course, festivals are also at least partly to blame for this
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 29 July 2019 22:23 (four years ago) link
Yes, the gradual transformation of the tour from "promotional effort for new album" to "only realistic source of income for the year" for many bands has not exactly been a boon to music fans outside of major cities.
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Monday, 29 July 2019 22:26 (four years ago) link
lol at whoever was making fun of Mat Dryhurst, he's a lovely guy and a sound and visuals designer, not a fucking orator. get over it.
also, while i actively use Youtube, i still don't have a Spotify account. i don't even know what it looks like, tbh, and hope i never do.
― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Monday, 29 July 2019 23:32 (four years ago) link
Not to discount any of the problems with streaming and recompense, but I frequently Spotify-stream albums that I have paid for and own when I could just rip them and play the MP3s, so the artists in this case are getting extra money from me. Obviously this isn't much on its own, but I can't be the only person doing this.
― And according to some websites, there were “sexcapades.” (James Morrison), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 00:56 (four years ago) link
If you're using YouTube but you think Spotify is evil, you...are not making decisions on principle.
― glenn mcdonald, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:08 (four years ago) link
How many streams of an album are roughly equivalent to a sale (in terms of royalties paid), does that metric exist?
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:14 (four years ago) link
top royalty rate is like 1 cent right? So roughly 100 plays per dollar. and then that gets split up between the artist and label etc I think
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:23 (four years ago) link
So per album, I guess around 10 plays? just rough estimate
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:24 (four years ago) link
whatever, head math while typing on a phone
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:25 (four years ago) link
If that’s true, and everything above 10 plays is gravy, that’s not so bad(?) Based on how many times a fan plays their favorite albums.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:29 (four years ago) link
If you can’t be bothered to buy an album you probably shouldn’t call yourself a fan
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:06 (four years ago) link
Tell that to the kids who stream nonstop.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:24 (four years ago) link
I have a more pithy version for them
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:25 (four years ago) link
Some of you seem to have a bizarre fetish around the idea of “buying the album,” almost as if it’s not actually about earning royalties for the artist at all.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:27 (four years ago) link
I mean I know this is the labels’ fault more than anyone’s, they got so terrified of being demolished by piracy that they let tech firms dictate the playing field and they left out artists in the bargain. But to my dying day I’ll reserve the right to be angry at every asshole who decided music was something they deserve for free unless they decide to put some spare change in the donation cup, and turned everyone into a busker, because that just doesn’t seem right. Even if it is what the market supports.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:32 (four years ago) link
Right, you’re mad at Limewire (and with good reason). I work with a guy in his 30s who’s never bought an album in his life. But people who embrace streaming today aren’t the assholes.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 05:13 (four years ago) link
music is free now go chase your dreams
― Vape Store (crüt), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 05:40 (four years ago) link
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:23 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:24 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:25 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:29 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
one cent per play is an overestimate, but even allowing for that it would take 100 album plays, not 10 (assuming 10 tracks per album), to approach the average album retail cost.
― The Pingularity (ledge), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 08:54 (four years ago) link
but how much of the retail cost of a cd do the artists see?
> the kids who stream nonstop.
the kids who stream nonstop probably don't have the disposable income to spend on cds and are just using spotify the way i used to listen to the radio. </old>
― koogs, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 10:05 (four years ago) link
the store will take a cut that is probably roughly the same % as spotify takes from this mythical cent per play, the label still gets their fat chunk regardless of the source.
― The Pingularity (ledge), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 10:31 (four years ago) link
From that Damon Krukowski article in pfork last year: Spotify had sent songwriting royalties of $1.05 for the 5,960 times our single “Tugboat” was played that quarter—split between the group’s three members, each of us had made 35 cents.
Breaks down to $0.00017 per stream. Obviously every deal is different, but still.
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:05 (four years ago) link
this site (which I found in a Google search, have no clue about its legitimacy) says “One Spotify stream is worth about $0.006 to $0.0084 to an artist”
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:37 (four years ago) link
Lol, at "paying" for an album by streaming it 100 times. Where are you getting this shit? Try like 10,000 times or more.
This also ignores that the largest investors in Spotify are the major labels who basically gave away streaming royalty rates as cheaply as possible in exchange for ownership interests in Spotify and/or non-royalty payments, which solely benefit the labels and not the artists. Therefore, the artists' cut of the streaming equivalent of a "sale" of an album will be far less than their cut of a physical sale (which was jack shit to begin with).
― Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:38 (four years ago) link
Basically, the way streams are paid is the Albini article on bad faith label accounting on steroids.
― Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:40 (four years ago) link
xxp It also says Spotify has “36% of the global streaming market” — surprisingly low to me. Do other services pay more? Wasn’t that Tidal’s deal
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:46 (four years ago) link
Tidal's deal was jacking people's accounts to generate fake streams for Beyonce & Kanye iirc
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:55 (four years ago) link
I read about that, lol
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:56 (four years ago) link
Here’s a detailed breakdown of royalty rates from different sources, by someone who seems to know their stuff. Apparently that “$0.006 to $0.0084” range (cited above) comes from an old Spotify FAQ that has since been taken down.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:05 (four years ago) link
Somewhere between 20 and 50 plays of a recent album, I'm breaking down and buying the thing on vinyl... and continuing to use Spotify out of the house for it (downloaded, mind, not wasting bandwidth constantly). I get exposed to more music with streaming so... I feel fine. The title of this thread, from the original article linked, seems to be making people extra heated.One thing I never hear of in this equation... When we discover something we like, say, over a few years old, and not easily available directly from the artist online, isn't it better off streaming a bunch than buying the one new copy at the store, that they aren't going to re-order?All the math I ever see seems to take as a given that we're talking about recent releases.
― maffew12, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:33 (four years ago) link
Buying digital from Bandcamp is pretty easy and doesn't involve having a CD. Most artists seems to suggest Bandcamp is pretty fair.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:35 (four years ago) link
Love bandcamp for buying digital. Would get physicals there more often if I weren't usually in a different country from where it's gonna ship from.
― maffew12, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:38 (four years ago) link
isn't it better off streaming a bunch than buying the one new copy at the store
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:41 (four years ago) link
how do you feel about Bandcamp morris?
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:42 (four years ago) link
whoops, thread title not from an article. OP's summary of previous conversations? sorry
― maffew12, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:42 (four years ago) link
It's tough to recall a time when listening to music — and making it — wasn't completely synonymous with streaming.
This is a bizarre first sentence.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:45 (four years ago) link
Even overlooking live music, I don't see why that would be tough for anyone whose memory extends back 10 years.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:48 (four years ago) link
xxxp I like Bandcamp! And what I’ve asked above is why more artists don’t use it exclusively, if it gives them the best deal. It’s a “niche” service right now — but couldn’t a critical mass of artists, inviting fans to find them on Bandcamp, change the equation?
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:48 (four years ago) link
maybe the writer was super into RealAudio
― maffew12, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:49 (four years ago) link
(I'm going to actually read the article, just got O_O there.) xps
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:50 (four years ago) link
Drag City resisted streaming for the longest time; then finally went to Bandcamp-exclusive; then threw in the towel and went full streaming not long afterward. A year after this guy gave this interview, he made his music available on Spotify: http://exclaim.ca/amparticle/bonnie_prince_billy_decries_disrespectful_irresponsible_music_streaming_calls_spotify_really_horribleWhat are the pressures that are forcing even the most stalwart, independent artists to wave the white flag?
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:54 (four years ago) link
What are the pressures that are forcing even the most stalwart, independent artists to wave the white flag?
I expect it's sales drooping to the degree that they just figure "might as well get the nickels we can before there's just absolutely no money at all." Two jazz labels that held out for a long time, Posi-Tone and HighNote/Savant, recently showed up on streaming services, and I'm happy because I like the music they put out, but I also know it means they're just desperately searching for any possible source of revenue, HighNote/Savant in particular since they do almost no PR or marketing.
― shared unit of analysis (unperson), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:01 (four years ago) link
My guess - the people who are fans of their work have mostly switched to streaming for convenience, and to reach them the artist is faced with either being present on those services, or forgotten about.
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:03 (four years ago) link
I only use the free, ad-happy version of Spotify, and I do buy music, but I'm more likely to pay for something if I can hear it first via streaming (or at a gig). When e.g. ECM stuff was not available on any streaming service, I was a lot more hesitant to buy.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:08 (four years ago) link
A few of my favorite releases from last year (Last Day of Summer, by Summer Walker; and the two Amerie EPs) aren’t even available on CD — if they were, I would have bought them right away. I guess I should buy the “digital albums” on Amazon so they get that money, even though I have no use for the MP3s.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:18 (four years ago) link
It's got to take a lot of willpower to stay off streaming distro, to trust that people are going to seek out the music rather than giving up and assuming it doesn't exist if it's not on Spotify etc.
One of the gutsiest moves I remember seeing recently was the last Jason Moran album. It was Bandcamp-only, priced at $20 (!), and you could only preview-stream one track. Judging from all the little profile squares, it worked out extremely well for him (but obviously you can only pull this off with an existing audience who can afford it and is willing to do so). But given that, I'm sure a lot of those same people would have just listened on Spotify if they had the option.
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:19 (four years ago) link
critiquing individual consumer choice but not the larger economic system here is wild. this isn't a fans vs bands problem...
― fits, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:21 (four years ago) link
Agree. But I understand that people passionate enough to have accounts here are trying to be among the "good ones" as this whole mess hopefully gets something like sorted out
― maffew12, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:23 (four years ago) link
I interviewed Moran about his approach to Bandcamp a couple of years ago. Here's the money quote (literally):
Most artists and labels charge between $7 and $10 for an album, but you charge $20. How did you arrive at that price point, and how is it working out for you?You know, I think about music as, ‘What do you value it at?’ And that’s basically it. I’ve often been asked this very question, and my immediate response is, look at the back of a slave that’s been whipped, and ask yourself, ‘How do you value your work?’ That’s the end for me. I could charge $50 for this, and if a person wants it, they want it. If they don’t, they don’t. It’s totally fine. But I set it there more as a place to hold it. The way music has been sold, this thing where I should be able to stream the entire thing before I buy it, is unfair, and I think it’s unfair that musicians should fall into the mode where they would do that automatically. I don’t believe in that. So the way we’re running it, my wife and I, for her record as well, is there are one or two songs we want people to hear, but maybe not. And they can change. I can change it—it’s not set in stone. But right now, I’m sitting it there, and seeing how long I feel like I can keep it there.
You know, I think about music as, ‘What do you value it at?’ And that’s basically it. I’ve often been asked this very question, and my immediate response is, look at the back of a slave that’s been whipped, and ask yourself, ‘How do you value your work?’ That’s the end for me. I could charge $50 for this, and if a person wants it, they want it. If they don’t, they don’t. It’s totally fine. But I set it there more as a place to hold it. The way music has been sold, this thing where I should be able to stream the entire thing before I buy it, is unfair, and I think it’s unfair that musicians should fall into the mode where they would do that automatically. I don’t believe in that. So the way we’re running it, my wife and I, for her record as well, is there are one or two songs we want people to hear, but maybe not. And they can change. I can change it—it’s not set in stone. But right now, I’m sitting it there, and seeing how long I feel like I can keep it there.
The thing is, Moran — primarily because he was signed to Blue Note for close to 20 years — is in a position where he's institutional. Literally; he's the artistic director of the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC. His wife, Alicia Hall Moran, is in a similarly elite position; she gets grants from high art institutions for new work. So they're not dependent on record sales for a living, and can say, "This is my art, and this is how much I think it's worth. Buy it, or don't."
― shared unit of analysis (unperson), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 14:47 (four years ago) link
right. ppl itt taking it for granted that it occurs to most people to actually sit and think “hmm perhaps i ought to go to the record store and buy a physical copy of this.” i don’t think it even occurs to most people that there is even a problem here, let alone the nature / stakes / scope of problem
yup
the kids who stream nonstop probably don't have the disposable income to spend on cds and are just using spotify the way i used to listen to the radio.
this is my experience. like, kids and ppl generally aren’t “stealing” the latest X record (and getting away with it, the smug jerks !), they’re just typing in a song they like and letting that autoplay roll
― budo jeru, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link