some very tortured arguments itt for solving the problem of musicians not being paid fairly by somehow spending less money on music
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Monday, 29 July 2019 16:48 (four years ago) link
duh why didn’t i think of that
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 16:50 (four years ago) link
xp
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 16:51 (four years ago) link
xxp That IS buying the album. It costs the same. You’re just not burdened with a physical CD, which (as b.j. adeptly pointed out above) is an outdated medium for numerous reasons.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Monday, 29 July 2019 16:52 (four years ago) link
solving the problem of musicians not being paid fairly by somehow spending less money on music
who is saying this ?
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 16:52 (four years ago) link
xp Yeah morrisp I agree but this is what you wrote
And how many of those artists have sufficient control over their music to bring it (exclusively) to Bandcamp or SoundCloud, with their superior “pay to stream after x plays” model? No one has answered this
What other platforms the artists work is available on is irrelevant, if you can buy the album, buy the album, problem solved.
So much effort is expended to make this issue seem like some responsibility of the artists to make their music more available, or more available in exactly the right ways, or less available in some ways but more available in other ways, etc etc. But the option to pay a price for music that fairly compensates the artist hasn't changed, whether its buying cds or lps, paying on bandcamp or whatever. Saying "if only the artists did this" or "if only the indie labels did that" doesn't change the fact that you almost always have the option to buy the music at a rate that fairly compensates the artist.
Saying "since they've been forced by industry changes to offer their music on the most popular platform for consuming music, it is therefore fair for me to consume it that way" is a nonstarter.
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:00 (four years ago) link
More misguided and unrealistic than expecting all that lost sales revenue to get magically replaced with an wholesale systemic change in the way arts are funded? Ok.
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Monday, July 29, 2019 11:33 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
i never uttered the words “an expansion of public funding for the arts would be easy and uncontroversial”
i do think it’s something worth fighting for, though, and implying that it could only happen via “magic” is both shitty and kind of weird coming from the person who insists that this very simple problem could easily be solved if we just get the generation raised on smart phones to start buying CD’s en masse and also this money will go straight to the artist of course
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:00 (four years ago) link
buy the album, problem solved.
you’ve got to be joking
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:02 (four years ago) link
I do "buy the album" (if I like it and want to keep listening). Who is the "you/me" you keep addressing? The vast majority of listeners (especially young ones) are going to listen via the path of least resistance -- streaming -- and my p.o.v. is that: (a) artists should indeed be justly compensated, and (b) if there are business models which accomplish that (which the article posted above says is the case), then those are the models which artists, labels, and their management should be pushing/adopting/using whatever. It's not a chin-stroking philosophical argument, and nor is it about bullying teenagers into buying DiscMans (cuz that's not gonna work).
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:09 (four years ago) link
budo I half agree with you in the sense that, while each thing would be good (massively structural economic shift to public funding of arts, kids buying music instead of streaming), neither is likely to ever happen imho, I guess we disagree on which thing is less likely to never happen, but w/e, splitting hairs at that point
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:11 (four years ago) link
Budo the catalyst for me posting itt was just morrisp’s statement that “but clearly it’s not all on the users either — the industry has chosen to embrace the streaming services, and fans are going to use them”Which like, whatever the solution is, considering how previous methods for buying music still exist, then clearly the blame is on the consumers who shifted their spending habits? Doesn’t seem like a controversial conclusion to me. Not arguing for government-issued DiscMans for every teen or w/e, but it seems obvious on its face that the drop in compensation for music is the result of ppl finding ways to justify not paying as much for music as they used to.
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:18 (four years ago) link
― budo jeru, Monday, July 29, 2019 1:02 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
2019
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:18 (four years ago) link
my whole point was that public arts funding would only be one aspect to address a structural problem
changing consumer habits could potentially change things for the better, my problem is that you haven’t considered the disparities between artists re: retail price vs. paycheck. the music industry is really complicated !
morrisp already made the point that, at a time when p much one’s only option was “just buy the album,” this did not necessarily mean better material conditions for the artist. in a utopian world where everybody shuns streaming and buys CD’s, what guarantees the welfare of the artists ?
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:20 (four years ago) link
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:22 (four years ago) link
Which like, whatever the solution is, considering how previous methods for buying music still exist, then clearly the blame is on the consumers who shifted their spending habits? Doesn’t seem like a controversial conclusion to me.
anyway if this is your starting point we’re never going to get anywhere constructive so, i disagree
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:24 (four years ago) link
what i mean is, i now see what you’re saying, i disagree but don’t want to elaborate beyond that, and sorry for derailing
― budo jeru, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:26 (four years ago) link
I concur w/b.j. -- it seems like if there's a "blame game" to be played here, we're not going to convince each other that the "blame" should fall on listeners.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:34 (four years ago) link
(or vice-versa, whatever)
Never accept the "just make money from live shows" argument from anyone who hasn't carried a drumset and Ampeg bass cab up a narrow flight of stairs
or lived in a place which used to get cool up+coming bands coming through in the 90s when 15 of the 20 people who turned up might have bought a record and/or told their friends, and now gets 0 cool bands coming through because bands save the live shows for established fan bases in big cities now they can no longer break even by treating them as loss leaders for the album
― a passing spacecadet, Monday, 29 July 2019 19:52 (four years ago) link
^^^ this
Of course, festivals are also at least partly to blame for this
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, 29 July 2019 22:23 (four years ago) link
Yes, the gradual transformation of the tour from "promotional effort for new album" to "only realistic source of income for the year" for many bands has not exactly been a boon to music fans outside of major cities.
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Monday, 29 July 2019 22:26 (four years ago) link
lol at whoever was making fun of Mat Dryhurst, he's a lovely guy and a sound and visuals designer, not a fucking orator. get over it.
also, while i actively use Youtube, i still don't have a Spotify account. i don't even know what it looks like, tbh, and hope i never do.
― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Monday, 29 July 2019 23:32 (four years ago) link
Not to discount any of the problems with streaming and recompense, but I frequently Spotify-stream albums that I have paid for and own when I could just rip them and play the MP3s, so the artists in this case are getting extra money from me. Obviously this isn't much on its own, but I can't be the only person doing this.
― And according to some websites, there were “sexcapades.” (James Morrison), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 00:56 (four years ago) link
If you're using YouTube but you think Spotify is evil, you...are not making decisions on principle.
― glenn mcdonald, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:08 (four years ago) link
How many streams of an album are roughly equivalent to a sale (in terms of royalties paid), does that metric exist?
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:14 (four years ago) link
top royalty rate is like 1 cent right? So roughly 100 plays per dollar. and then that gets split up between the artist and label etc I think
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:23 (four years ago) link
So per album, I guess around 10 plays? just rough estimate
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:24 (four years ago) link
whatever, head math while typing on a phone
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:25 (four years ago) link
If that’s true, and everything above 10 plays is gravy, that’s not so bad(?) Based on how many times a fan plays their favorite albums.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:29 (four years ago) link
If you can’t be bothered to buy an album you probably shouldn’t call yourself a fan
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:06 (four years ago) link
Tell that to the kids who stream nonstop.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:24 (four years ago) link
I have a more pithy version for them
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:25 (four years ago) link
Some of you seem to have a bizarre fetish around the idea of “buying the album,” almost as if it’s not actually about earning royalties for the artist at all.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:27 (four years ago) link
I mean I know this is the labels’ fault more than anyone’s, they got so terrified of being demolished by piracy that they let tech firms dictate the playing field and they left out artists in the bargain. But to my dying day I’ll reserve the right to be angry at every asshole who decided music was something they deserve for free unless they decide to put some spare change in the donation cup, and turned everyone into a busker, because that just doesn’t seem right. Even if it is what the market supports.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 03:32 (four years ago) link
Right, you’re mad at Limewire (and with good reason). I work with a guy in his 30s who’s never bought an album in his life. But people who embrace streaming today aren’t the assholes.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 05:13 (four years ago) link
music is free now go chase your dreams
― Vape Store (crüt), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 05:40 (four years ago) link
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:23 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:24 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― brimstead, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:25 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 01:29 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
one cent per play is an overestimate, but even allowing for that it would take 100 album plays, not 10 (assuming 10 tracks per album), to approach the average album retail cost.
― The Pingularity (ledge), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 08:54 (four years ago) link
but how much of the retail cost of a cd do the artists see?
> the kids who stream nonstop.
the kids who stream nonstop probably don't have the disposable income to spend on cds and are just using spotify the way i used to listen to the radio. </old>
― koogs, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 10:05 (four years ago) link
the store will take a cut that is probably roughly the same % as spotify takes from this mythical cent per play, the label still gets their fat chunk regardless of the source.
― The Pingularity (ledge), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 10:31 (four years ago) link
From that Damon Krukowski article in pfork last year: Spotify had sent songwriting royalties of $1.05 for the 5,960 times our single “Tugboat” was played that quarter—split between the group’s three members, each of us had made 35 cents.
Breaks down to $0.00017 per stream. Obviously every deal is different, but still.
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:05 (four years ago) link
this site (which I found in a Google search, have no clue about its legitimacy) says “One Spotify stream is worth about $0.006 to $0.0084 to an artist”
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:37 (four years ago) link
Lol, at "paying" for an album by streaming it 100 times. Where are you getting this shit? Try like 10,000 times or more.
This also ignores that the largest investors in Spotify are the major labels who basically gave away streaming royalty rates as cheaply as possible in exchange for ownership interests in Spotify and/or non-royalty payments, which solely benefit the labels and not the artists. Therefore, the artists' cut of the streaming equivalent of a "sale" of an album will be far less than their cut of a physical sale (which was jack shit to begin with).
― Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:38 (four years ago) link
Basically, the way streams are paid is the Albini article on bad faith label accounting on steroids.
― Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:40 (four years ago) link
xxp It also says Spotify has “36% of the global streaming market” — surprisingly low to me. Do other services pay more? Wasn’t that Tidal’s deal
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:46 (four years ago) link
Tidal's deal was jacking people's accounts to generate fake streams for Beyonce & Kanye iirc
― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:55 (four years ago) link
I read about that, lol
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:56 (four years ago) link
Here’s a detailed breakdown of royalty rates from different sources, by someone who seems to know their stuff. Apparently that “$0.006 to $0.0084” range (cited above) comes from an old Spotify FAQ that has since been taken down.
― the last Berry La Croix in the work fridge (morrisp), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:05 (four years ago) link
Somewhere between 20 and 50 plays of a recent album, I'm breaking down and buying the thing on vinyl... and continuing to use Spotify out of the house for it (downloaded, mind, not wasting bandwidth constantly). I get exposed to more music with streaming so... I feel fine. The title of this thread, from the original article linked, seems to be making people extra heated.One thing I never hear of in this equation... When we discover something we like, say, over a few years old, and not easily available directly from the artist online, isn't it better off streaming a bunch than buying the one new copy at the store, that they aren't going to re-order?All the math I ever see seems to take as a given that we're talking about recent releases.
― maffew12, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:33 (four years ago) link
Buying digital from Bandcamp is pretty easy and doesn't involve having a CD. Most artists seems to suggest Bandcamp is pretty fair.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:35 (four years ago) link
Love bandcamp for buying digital. Would get physicals there more often if I weren't usually in a different country from where it's gonna ship from.
― maffew12, Tuesday, 30 July 2019 13:38 (four years ago) link