As with many syncretic talents, Bowie needed the right band: he couldn't have written this album in 1995 because he hadn't met these people in 1995
yeah this is the key for me - him and that band both propel each other to some astonishing places. There's such an incredible spark between him and that group, and you hear it right from the first notes, it animates the material in a really unique way. The songs are wonderful, but it's not hard for me to imagine a version of this record that doesnt work at all if he had just laid it down with some crack session players.
― One Eye Open, Friday, 14 June 2019 00:09 (five years ago) link
Tritones and m2's are definitely regarded as dissonances in the present day ftr, at least in the context of tonal music. The blues would sound less blue if we could not hear tritones as more dissonant than major thirds.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Thursday, June 13, 2019 5:47 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I think flopsy’s point (?) was that we don’t hear tritones as dissonant as our ancestors did
― old cloud yells at man (voodoo chili), Friday, 14 June 2019 02:03 (five years ago) link
We have Les Paul and Jim Marshall to thank for that, I think.
― shared unit of analysis (unperson), Friday, 14 June 2019 02:26 (five years ago) link
Voted "Girl Loves Me". It's just what grabbed me today.
I have to work with Blackstar. It's a challenging 2016 record; I don't think the comparisons to "Station to Station" are 'superficial'. I do hear echoes of his self-destructive cocaine fascism. In early press for the record Bowie evoked the Vorticists; he would surely have known they went fascist. The European Canon is certainly a huge part of "Blackstar".
I don't know how to feel about this. Fascism is innately a music of death, so it makes sense that this part of him, which he persuasively debunked time and again ("Quicksand" also a sharp rebuke to his fascist aspect), would resurface once again. And his fascism was always personal, always occult. Blackstar isn't a prophetic album.
― Flood-Resistant Mirror-Drilling Machine (rushomancy), Friday, 14 June 2019 02:31 (five years ago) link
How do most people hear tritones in the present day? The whole discussion began because a poster said they find it grating in the chorus of "I Can't Give Everything Away".
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Friday, 14 June 2019 02:40 (five years ago) link
Grove Online article by William Drabkin is p interesting, actually. The history of the interval and how it has been regarded is pretty complex, although tonal instability seems to be its basic characteristic.
...Since the beginnings of polyphony in the early Middle Ages theorists and composers have changed their attitudes to the tritone and its use more than to any other interval.In the medieval system of church modes the tritone was most conspicuous as the interval between the final and the fourth degree of the modes on F, the Lydian and Hypolydian. Conjunct progressions that outline the ascending tritone or the descending diminished 5th F–B are not uncommon in Gregorian chant (although tritone leaps are rare; see Gellnick), and the introduction of B♭ in plainsong notation [done to avoid the tritone] seems to have been a relatively late development. The first known use of the word ‘tritonus’ occurs in the 9th- or 10th-century organum treatise Musica enchiriadis, though it was not explicitly prohibited until the development of Guido of Arezzo's hexachordal system, which made B♭ a diatonic note, namely as the fourth degree of the hexachord on F. From then until the end of the Renaissance the tritone, nicknamed the ‘diabolus in musica’, was regarded as an unstable interval and rejected as a consonance by most theorists. In the 13th century it was classified as a discordantia perfecta, along with the minor 2nd and major 7th; and by the 15th century the Lydian mode was understood as having a flattened fourth degree (Tinctoris: Liber de natura … tonorum, 1476), that is, as being a transposed Ionian mode, as Glarean defined it in the Dodecachordon (1547).Since the 16th century the instability of the tritone has led to developments in two directions. On the one hand, its presence in the dominant 7th chord in four-part counterpoint has made the authentic perfect cadence an even stronger affirmation of the tonality, providing an approach by semitone not only to the tonic degree but also to the 3rd (ex.1a). However, because it divides the octave into two equal parts, the tritone has also assumed the role of the tonally most ambiguous interval, as opposed to the 5th, which divides the octave into unequal parts and is (apart from the octave itself) the interval most fundamental to tonality: in particular, the tritone has come to be recognized as a basic substructure within the diminished 7th chord and the whole-tone scale (ex.1b–c). In the chorale Es ist genug (ex.2) Bach used the tritone embedded in the major scale to create an ambiguity in the relationship between tonic and dominant. Both Mozart and Beethoven used tritones thematically or motivically to divide the octave into equal parts (exx.3–4). In 19th-century Romantic opera the tritone regularly portrays that which is ominous or evil; an early instance is in the dungeon scene in Act 2 of Fidelio, for which the timpani are tuned A–E♭. Its importance in dramatic music led to further developments in the extension and suspension of tonality, particularly in Wagner’s Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal (see also ‘Tristan’ chord), the late piano works of Liszt and the music of Debussy (ex.5). In 12-note music, the fact that the inversion of the tritone at the interval of an octave yields another tritone (no other interval except the octave has this property) has proved fundamentally significant, both in theory and in practice.
In the medieval system of church modes the tritone was most conspicuous as the interval between the final and the fourth degree of the modes on F, the Lydian and Hypolydian. Conjunct progressions that outline the ascending tritone or the descending diminished 5th F–B are not uncommon in Gregorian chant (although tritone leaps are rare; see Gellnick), and the introduction of B♭ in plainsong notation [done to avoid the tritone] seems to have been a relatively late development. The first known use of the word ‘tritonus’ occurs in the 9th- or 10th-century organum treatise Musica enchiriadis, though it was not explicitly prohibited until the development of Guido of Arezzo's hexachordal system, which made B♭ a diatonic note, namely as the fourth degree of the hexachord on F. From then until the end of the Renaissance the tritone, nicknamed the ‘diabolus in musica’, was regarded as an unstable interval and rejected as a consonance by most theorists. In the 13th century it was classified as a discordantia perfecta, along with the minor 2nd and major 7th; and by the 15th century the Lydian mode was understood as having a flattened fourth degree (Tinctoris: Liber de natura … tonorum, 1476), that is, as being a transposed Ionian mode, as Glarean defined it in the Dodecachordon (1547).
Since the 16th century the instability of the tritone has led to developments in two directions. On the one hand, its presence in the dominant 7th chord in four-part counterpoint has made the authentic perfect cadence an even stronger affirmation of the tonality, providing an approach by semitone not only to the tonic degree but also to the 3rd (ex.1a). However, because it divides the octave into two equal parts, the tritone has also assumed the role of the tonally most ambiguous interval, as opposed to the 5th, which divides the octave into unequal parts and is (apart from the octave itself) the interval most fundamental to tonality: in particular, the tritone has come to be recognized as a basic substructure within the diminished 7th chord and the whole-tone scale (ex.1b–c). In the chorale Es ist genug (ex.2) Bach used the tritone embedded in the major scale to create an ambiguity in the relationship between tonic and dominant. Both Mozart and Beethoven used tritones thematically or motivically to divide the octave into equal parts (exx.3–4). In 19th-century Romantic opera the tritone regularly portrays that which is ominous or evil; an early instance is in the dungeon scene in Act 2 of Fidelio, for which the timpani are tuned A–E♭. Its importance in dramatic music led to further developments in the extension and suspension of tonality, particularly in Wagner’s Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal (see also ‘Tristan’ chord), the late piano works of Liszt and the music of Debussy (ex.5). In 12-note music, the fact that the inversion of the tritone at the interval of an octave yields another tritone (no other interval except the octave has this property) has proved fundamentally significant, both in theory and in practice.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Friday, 14 June 2019 02:53 (five years ago) link
For me, "Girl Loves Me" really communicates the dissociation and panic of an existential threat like knowing you have a cancer which will kill you soon. It commands my attention.
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Friday, 14 June 2019 04:04 (five years ago) link
Played this lp last night and was again taken aback by how great it is. Also, I forgot how crappy the vinyl pressing is—very noisy. Is there a good quiet pressing?
― nerve_pylon, Friday, 14 June 2019 04:14 (five years ago) link
As with many syncretic talents, Bowie needed the right band:
I was reading this interview with Matt Chamberlain the other day and he talked about the Heathen sessions, with just him and Bowie and Visconti, and how much Bowie fed off of what he was coming up with:
David is kind of like Tori, in that nothing is too precious and everything is permissible. You can try anything because if you don’t—and you just do what he wants—then what’s the point in having me there? He just let me go, and it was kind of mind-blowing. He would write a song and say, “Alright, what do you think”? And I would go, “Well, let me make a loop.” Then he and Tony would disappear and I would sit in the studio by myself. At the time, I was using a cheap Boomerang pedal to make loops and the whole time I was thinking, They’re letting me create the vibe of this song? This is a David Bowie record. Aaahhh!
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 14 June 2019 14:29 (five years ago) link
It just occurred to me that people might be working with a general usage of "dissonant" as meaning something like "harsh/unpleasant/not belonging together". When discussing harmony, it refers to unstable harmonies that seek resolution and are an important element in tonal music. I don't believe that anyone hears #iv m7b5 as stable and resolved.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Friday, 14 June 2019 16:06 (five years ago) link
Harmony has multiple meanings as well
― ilm jive mind (FlopsyDuck), Saturday, 15 June 2019 23:01 (five years ago) link
Man, she punched me like a dude
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 15 June 2019 23:16 (five years ago) link
those last two WOOs! on ‘Tis a PityDamn
― flappy bird, Sunday, 16 June 2019 16:27 (five years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Monday, 17 June 2019 00:01 (five years ago) link
I'm not a film star!
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 17 June 2019 11:55 (five years ago) link
i'm not a gang starr!
― old cloud yells at man (voodoo chili), Monday, 17 June 2019 14:19 (five years ago) link
we should do a ★ videos poll next
― old cloud yells at man (voodoo chili), Monday, 17 June 2019 14:20 (five years ago) link
Tbh I feel like anyone not voting for the title ★ is fronting or taking it for granted.
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 17 June 2019 14:46 (five years ago) link
the tension in the chorus before resolving with 'away' is the most magical part of the song IMO.
I saw NIN perform this on their last tour and it was pure magic.
― akm, Monday, 17 June 2019 14:53 (five years ago) link
― flappy bird, Monday, 17 June 2019 15:07 (five years ago) link
★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★
― i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Monday, 17 June 2019 15:15 (five years ago) link
today i learned that a black star can be italicized
― i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Monday, 17 June 2019 15:16 (five years ago) link
Like giancarlo esposito, sure
― shhh / let peaceful like things (wins), Monday, 17 June 2019 15:18 (five years ago) link
Title track through Sue is up there with Remain In Light for me in terms of all-time unfuckwithable Side 1’s
― One Eye Open, Monday, 17 June 2019 15:55 (five years ago) link
Er thru Lazarus that is, lol
― One Eye Open, Monday, 17 June 2019 15:57 (five years ago) link
3 hours left to vote
― ilm jive mind (FlopsyDuck), Monday, 17 June 2019 20:20 (five years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 00:01 (five years ago) link
very surprised to see Lazarus so low (though i voted for ★)
― i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 00:05 (five years ago) link
Definitely surprised by those results. For me it's ★, Sue, Whore, Give, Lazarus, Girl, Dollar (the only song on the record I actually dislike).
― shared unit of analysis (unperson), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 01:10 (five years ago) link
glad Blackstar won
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 01:40 (five years ago) link
Black struck the kiss, she kept my cockSmote the mistress, drifting on
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 01:41 (five years ago) link
and happy Tis a Pity placed so high
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 01:47 (five years ago) link
I still can't listen to this record though, I've barely revisited it since 2016. Just too much... I probably said this before but to face death with such dignity, strength, and risk. A truly remarkable man.
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 01:49 (five years ago) link
Sue is a really good song! Damn.
― but everybody calls me, (lukas), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 02:10 (five years ago) link
Yeah Sue is really something else. When I listen to the album straight through, by the time Sue is finished I usually need to turn it off for a minute and take a break to get my bearings
― One Eye Open, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 12:21 (five years ago) link
Is Turrican on holiday
― PaulTMA, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:15 (five years ago) link
You could put it like that.
― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:16 (five years ago) link
it's more accurate to say that we're on holiday
― i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:19 (five years ago) link
Not banned is he? I assumed he was wisely stepping back from ILX for a while.
― Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:27 (five years ago) link
a little r and r at a ranch they call number 51
― d'ILM for Murder (Hadrian VIII), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:28 (five years ago) link
xp banned with extreme prejudice, I think he hit 55 before they pulled the plug
― Ambient Police (sleeve), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:29 (five years ago) link
Oops.
― Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:29 (five years ago) link
The earlier version of "Sue", from the Nothing has Changed comp alerted me that Bowie was really back, and still much prefer it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NYgRuxO2sw
― bendy, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:48 (five years ago) link
i was the only "girl loves me" vote?!?
i'm not decided between the "nothing has changed" versions of "sue" and "'tis a pity" and the blackstar versions. they're both good in their own way!
― Flood-Resistant Mirror-Drilling Machine (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 14:59 (five years ago) link
also "astronomy (8th light)" was robbed
― Flood-Resistant Mirror-Drilling Machine (rushomancy), Tuesday, 18 June 2019 15:00 (five years ago) link
I couldn't choose, but I might have voted for Girl Loves Me if I had been able to
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Wednesday, 19 June 2019 01:22 (five years ago) link
xp, yeah i think the og version of sue absolutely destroys the blackstar version
― J. Sam, Wednesday, 19 June 2019 02:09 (five years ago) link
It’s more highbrow, but I love the dirty drum’n’bass workouts of the album version. A little nod to Earthling which I still rate.
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Wednesday, 19 June 2019 04:20 (five years ago) link