rank the songs on STICKY FINGERS

are you suggesting Miller and Jones should have replaced Watts? Really?

So many intangibles affect the direction in which bands go that to speculate about how this scab or that replacement would've fared is Hoffman board crap. Miller's appropriate and on-point performances on several tracks don't answer how he would've fared with Jagger and Richards telling him how to play. Daryl Jones has been the band's bassist for almost twenty-five years -- a man who played with Miles Davis. Not once has he embarrassed himself, yet I can't think of a single part that's enlivened a dull song the same way that, say, Bill Wyman did (and, yeah, I'm aware that Richards, Ronnie, and Mick Taylor subbed for him a couple times per record).

This conversation is insane.

No! Watts is great! Just ... overrated.

Example #4567 while I never use under/overrated in conversation or writing. Over/under compared to whom?

How is Charlie Watts overrated? People have been dissing his drumming for decades!

are you suggesting Miller and Jones should have replaced Watts? Really?

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 5:59 PM (seven minutes ago)Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Kenney Jones in the '60s would have been amazing in the Stones.

Now there's an underrated drummer!

It's bizarre that I have to defend "feel" on rock 'n' roll on ILM in 2019, but I can't imagine Miller coming up with Watts' part in "Honky Tonk Women" or a studio drummer doing the rolls in "Get Off of My Cloud."

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 5:45 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Miller plays cowbell on 'Honky Tonk Women', not because it sounded good (it just so happened to), but it was to keep Watts in time.

On 'Get Off of My Cloud', Watts actually slows down which wrecks the energy of the track. No, a studio drummer would not have done that.

i'm kinda amazed by this conversation tbh. i have always thought charlie was the best musician in the stones and, along with mick, the most irreplaceable member. i mean try to imagine "get off of my cloud" with any other drummer.

also c'mon there is no way paul is a better drummer than ringo! i mean paul is just fine on the handful of tracks he plays on, but when did he ever do anything like ringo did on "rain," "ticket to ride," "a day in the life," etc?

xpost lol, well, i guess some ppl can imagine it.

His drumming on "Band on the Run" is pretty ropey in places.

On 'Get Off of My Cloud', Watts actually slows down which wrecks the energy of the track. No, a studio drummer would not have done that.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican)

The energy's fine -- the best of their early singles, thanks to Watts and those sinister guitars.

I can imagine Avory or Jones playing 'Get Off of My Cloud' and it sounds amazing.

The drum sound on that track does well to mask how ropey the playing is.

Tbf If Miller play cowbell on Honky Tonk Women to keep Watts in time, then mission not accomplished, because that is one of the most famous examples of speed up in rock history.

God, I can even imagine Ringo doing a better job of 'Get Off of My Cloud', particularly if it was played with the energy of 'It Won't Be Long' or 'She Loves You' ...

sorry, on phone. Didn't Paul demonstrate to Ringo the Ticket to Ride beat?

I brought up Paul as a better drummer just because I happened to be in the car the other week when Back in the USSR came on, and I kind of listened to it a bit and realized, wait, there is no way this is Ringo! Or, iirc, possibly any of the other Beatles.

Tbf If Miller play cowbell on Honky Tonk Women to keep Watts in time, then mission not accomplished, because that is one of the most famous examples of speed up in rock history.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, April 19, 2019 6:18 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Most of 'em speed up! 'Get Off of My Cloud' is the only one I can think of which does the opposite!

But Honky Tonk speeds up a noticeable ton.

Watts, I think he became a much more iconic drummer in the later years.

I do think the occasional sloppiness or imprecision of drummers like Watts and Ringo do actually add a lot of character.

I do think the occasional sloppiness or imprecision of drummers like Watts and Ringo do actually add a lot of character.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, April 19, 2019 1:25 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's those weird speed ups and slow downs in tempo that make rock music "rock"

And "Sway" is the best song on this record, it might be my favorite Stones tune

I don't think Ringo was sloppy. Listen to 'Birthday', for example - that's a great performance. Ringo had his quirks, it's true, but Watts ineptitude is just annoying.

Moonlight Mile
You've gotta move
Bitch
Dead Flowers
Can't you hear me knocking
Sister Morphine
Sway
Wild Horses
I got the blues
Brown Sugar

Alfred otm wrt “this conversation is insane”

One trick to Ringo is the overdubbed percussion. (See also: Copeland, Stewart).

I've noticed he liked to manually double track his snare a lot. As for stuff like tambourines, maracas, shakers etc., zillions of bands did that and still do.

No, I'm pretty sure he's the only one.

alfred otm

yr all drunk

Just another Turriconvo...down the road

Ringo had his quirks, it's true, but Watts ineptitude is just annoying.

He's not the only one.

sway
all the others

turrican't you hear me trolling

Trolling? Not only have I actually expressed this opinion before - and my take is a valid one - I've also provided examples and explained my viewpoint.

It's just the usual case of people not liking what they're reading, and because they have no counter-argument they wheel out the old "X is trolling" statement.

LOL, what a clown.

You even said yourself, people have been dissing Watts' drumming for decades, so...

Certainly, it's not your opinions that are the problem here it's your way of defending them.

It’s so weird that the Stones were at the center of the 60s zeitgeist, had a string of huge hits, were one of the biggest bands in the world, lost a founding member and *then* found their signature sound almost a decade after forming.
Also Ginger is shit and would have killed the groove of most of the best Stones tunes.

It's only become their signature sound through repetition and because 1968-1972 is their most popular era, particularly for American rock critics. I'm sure that at the time albums like Beggar's Banquet and Let It Bleed just represented yet another hat that the Stones were just trying on, and they never stopped - usually driven by Mick - trying different hats on after they found their so-called "signature sound", which (if anything) became a crutch to lean on when they had either ran out of ideas or Mick-derived ideas to revitalise the Stones' sound proved to be unpopular.

Ginger's grooves are far less lumpen than Watts'

what does lumpen mean in reference to drumming

Yeah, I’m not saying the stones aren’t cynical, I’m saying their career arc is stranger than the official narrative suggests.
If only Dave Wekl or Vinnie Corlaiuta had been hanging around London in the early 60s eh?

what does lumpen mean in reference to drumming

― The Mod Who Banned Liberty Valance (WmC), Friday, April 19, 2019 9:44 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

can't help but be reminded of the days when chuck eddy was a regular and he would dismiss bands by insisting that they "didn't even have a rhythm section" or "the drummer doesn't swing"

fellas did you know Keith Richards used an open G tuning and only played 5 strings? He’s out of time all over the place and that’s why they brought in Mick Taylor to cover up his terrible playing. They should have had Eric Clapton instead.

weird that a band that had no problem sidelining Ian Stewart for looks or sacking Brian Jones for turning into Brian Jones never managed to replace their legendarily incompetent drummer. boy howdy that Charlie Watts must really have some dirt on his singer.

Revisited this afternoon. Blasting this through good speakers is one of my life’s small pleasures.

Sister Morphine was wired in high school but def tired now that I am middle-aged.
You Got To Move still makes my skip-finger twitch, nothing will ever change that.

I really really love the horns in I Got the Blues.

Charlie’s drumming on Moonlight Mile is 🙌🏻

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Can’t You Hear Me Knocking
Wild Horses
I Got The Blues
Dead Flowers
Brown Sugar
You Got To Move
Sister Morphine

bitch is one of the first stones album cuts i liked free of radio-conditioning, i used it in many a mix until i got to liking everything

oops i left bitch off my list ragh

redux

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Can’t You Hear Me Knocking
Wild Horses
Bitch
I Got The Blues
Dead Flowers
Brown Sugar
You Got To Move
Sister Morphine

bobby’s sax on bitch is so choice

yeah i think i must have been in a phase where i wanted to hear lots of songs with horn sections

i am no rs fan and i don't know the album very well. my fave rs albums have always been beggar's banquet and exile on main street.

don't get the love for sway at all. can someone explain? a boring ballad with some awful guitar wankery in the last minute. it drags on forever. and is not even 4 minutes long, quite a feat.

wild horses
can't you hear me knocking
sister morphine
bitch
i got the blues
brown sugar
you gotta move
sway
moonlight mile
dead flowers

with SWAY it's all in the Jagger performance for me, with the guitars placing second. love the mysteriousness of the lyrics and frankly "It's just that demon life has got you in its sway" is for me one of the best single lines of all-time, just as a very particular and strange assessment of tough times.