rank the songs on STICKY FINGERS

who needs fills?

sloppy fills in sloppy songs are the best

"sway" has the best of everything

Fortunately Watts has other songs in which he's excellent and Jimmy Miller is nowhere in sight.

I got the blues is top 3 for me!

Sway
Can't you hear me knocking
I got the blues
Moonlight Mile
You've gotta move
Bitch
Sister Morphine
Brown Sugar
Dead Flowers
Wild Horses

Fortunately Watts has other songs in which he's excellent and Jimmy Miller is nowhere in sight.

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 3:45 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'll give him 'Midnight Rambler' which is a very good performance - otherwise, for me, the worst of all the "name" '60s drummers.

Ginger Baker is the worst of the "name" 60s drummers

The worst personality, sure, but had no issues with staying in time or drum fills and didn't sound like he'd never seen, let alone played a drumkit before. I'm sure he could have picked up the totally uncomplicated rhythm of 'Ventilator Blues' without having Bobby Keys beside him clapping to keep him in time. He didn't need Jimmy Miller to play cowbell for him to keep him in time either.

I'm sure there's no way that Ginger Baker would have allowed the painful flub on 'I'm Free' (which ruins the track as much as the out of tune bass ruins 'She Smiled Sweetly') to leave the studio either.

Charlie Watts (and Ringo, but more Charlie) definitely the most overrated of the '60s drummers. Mick Avery probably the most underrated. Ginger the most adventurous, but that came after Cream.

I do think it is interesting that the Stones sound that everybody can recognize really didn't coalesce until the '70s. And the wind-up monkey harlie style that everybody recognizes probably not till the mid- to late 70s.

I've never actually thought twice or even once about Watts' drumming for good or ill, but he doesn't overplay so he's good in my book

he doesn't overplay so he's good in my book

The anti-Ginger.

Ginger doesn't overplay either, at least on Cream's studio stuff.

Agree with Josh that Mick Avory is underrated, I've always loved his playing. 'Everybody's Gonna Be Happy' is a great example.

He's irritating as hell on the Blind Faith album.

not to derail -- moe is probably the most anti of the anti-ginger (if "ginger" = all bro pro attitude tech chops asshole type drummer)
imo

If Ringo and Watts are overrated, then pray tell me what drummers would hve suited their bands?

can't believe these dudes have another compilation out today

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honk_(album)

In the case of the former, I think Ringo was entirely suitable for The Beatles. While I do think that Josh is OTM regarding the tendency of people to overrate Ringo, I think the reason for this is simply because he was underrated for so long. He's a good drummer, at least on the Beatles stuff, while being no Baker, Mitchell or Avory.

For the latter - Jimmy Miller, of course.

It's worth pointing out that I think Keith Moon is overrated for completely different reasons to why I think Watts isn't much cop.

It's bizarre that I have to defend "feel" on rock 'n' roll on ILM in 2019, but I can't imagine Miller coming up with Watts' part in "Honky Tonk Women" or a studio drummer doing the rolls in "Get Off of My Cloud."

Ventilator Blues is pretty tricky as a beat, especially assuming that it's a song that was written on the fly while recording and not labored over in practice. my rhythm sense is pretty on point and it's a little tough.

additionally the sick fills on "loving cup" are not played by jimmy miller

Ringo's place in the Beatles is moot, because he of course was the "right" drummer. But, for example, even Paul was probably a better drummer, and he was in the band.

Stones ... yeah, Jimmy Miller was as good or better than Watts. Or, I dunno, Kenny Jones, makes a better Watts replacement than Keith Moon replacement.

Of course, neither of the above were bad, per see, unlike, say, Michael Clark from the Byrds. But they weren't essential to the band the way, say, Keith Moon was to the Who. But both Charlie and Ringo know how to stay out of the way and never make a song *worse*, which is better than many!

additionally the sick fills on "loving cup" are not played by jimmy miller

― american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, April 19, 2019 12:50 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm the drumming on that song is perfect

are you suggesting Miller and Jones should have replaced Watts? Really?

So many intangibles affect the direction in which bands go that to speculate about how this scab or that replacement would've fared is Hoffman board crap. Miller's appropriate and on-point performances on several tracks don't answer how he would've fared with Jagger and Richards telling him how to play. Daryl Jones has been the band's bassist for almost twenty-five years -- a man who played with Miles Davis. Not once has he embarrassed himself, yet I can't think of a single part that's enlivened a dull song the same way that, say, Bill Wyman did (and, yeah, I'm aware that Richards, Ronnie, and Mick Taylor subbed for him a couple times per record).

This conversation is insane.

No! Watts is great! Just ... overrated.

Example #4567 while I never use under/overrated in conversation or writing. Over/under compared to whom?

How is Charlie Watts overrated? People have been dissing his drumming for decades!

are you suggesting Miller and Jones should have replaced Watts? Really?

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 5:59 PM (seven minutes ago)Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Kenney Jones in the '60s would have been amazing in the Stones.

Now there's an underrated drummer!

It's bizarre that I have to defend "feel" on rock 'n' roll on ILM in 2019, but I can't imagine Miller coming up with Watts' part in "Honky Tonk Women" or a studio drummer doing the rolls in "Get Off of My Cloud."

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 5:45 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Miller plays cowbell on 'Honky Tonk Women', not because it sounded good (it just so happened to), but it was to keep Watts in time.

On 'Get Off of My Cloud', Watts actually slows down which wrecks the energy of the track. No, a studio drummer would not have done that.

i'm kinda amazed by this conversation tbh. i have always thought charlie was the best musician in the stones and, along with mick, the most irreplaceable member. i mean try to imagine "get off of my cloud" with any other drummer.

also c'mon there is no way paul is a better drummer than ringo! i mean paul is just fine on the handful of tracks he plays on, but when did he ever do anything like ringo did on "rain," "ticket to ride," "a day in the life," etc?

xpost lol, well, i guess some ppl can imagine it.

His drumming on "Band on the Run" is pretty ropey in places.

On 'Get Off of My Cloud', Watts actually slows down which wrecks the energy of the track. No, a studio drummer would not have done that.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican)

The energy's fine -- the best of their early singles, thanks to Watts and those sinister guitars.

I can imagine Avory or Jones playing 'Get Off of My Cloud' and it sounds amazing.

The drum sound on that track does well to mask how ropey the playing is.

Tbf If Miller play cowbell on Honky Tonk Women to keep Watts in time, then mission not accomplished, because that is one of the most famous examples of speed up in rock history.

God, I can even imagine Ringo doing a better job of 'Get Off of My Cloud', particularly if it was played with the energy of 'It Won't Be Long' or 'She Loves You' ...

sorry, on phone. Didn't Paul demonstrate to Ringo the Ticket to Ride beat?

I brought up Paul as a better drummer just because I happened to be in the car the other week when Back in the USSR came on, and I kind of listened to it a bit and realized, wait, there is no way this is Ringo! Or, iirc, possibly any of the other Beatles.

Tbf If Miller play cowbell on Honky Tonk Women to keep Watts in time, then mission not accomplished, because that is one of the most famous examples of speed up in rock history.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, April 19, 2019 6:18 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Most of 'em speed up! 'Get Off of My Cloud' is the only one I can think of which does the opposite!

But Honky Tonk speeds up a noticeable ton.

Watts, I think he became a much more iconic drummer in the later years.

I do think the occasional sloppiness or imprecision of drummers like Watts and Ringo do actually add a lot of character.

I do think the occasional sloppiness or imprecision of drummers like Watts and Ringo do actually add a lot of character.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, April 19, 2019 1:25 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's those weird speed ups and slow downs in tempo that make rock music "rock"

And "Sway" is the best song on this record, it might be my favorite Stones tune

I don't think Ringo was sloppy. Listen to 'Birthday', for example - that's a great performance. Ringo had his quirks, it's true, but Watts ineptitude is just annoying.

Moonlight Mile
You've gotta move
Bitch
Dead Flowers
Can't you hear me knocking
Sister Morphine
Sway
Wild Horses
I got the blues
Brown Sugar

Alfred otm wrt “this conversation is insane”

One trick to Ringo is the overdubbed percussion. (See also: Copeland, Stewart).

I've noticed he liked to manually double track his snare a lot. As for stuff like tambourines, maracas, shakers etc., zillions of bands did that and still do.

No, I'm pretty sure he's the only one.

alfred otm

yr all drunk