Reeducation camps?
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 22:44 (nineteen years ago) link
IIRC this had been quite successfully achieved by Crass and their ilk by about 1980.
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 22:46 (nineteen years ago) link
Aaaah yes.
They could all be given tutorials in punk.
Except that unfortunately that in itself would of course be intrinsically un-punk.
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 22:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 22:48 (nineteen years ago) link
Is it wrong for Ciara fans to say they listen to R&B? You seem to be assuming that punk rock always has to be what it was in 1977....so they can't win, right? Either they are "punks" that are just haplessly rehashing the sounds of 77 or they're not punks at all!
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 22:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 22:51 (nineteen years ago) link
http://www.scratchonline.ca/submissions/1_sid_vicious.jpg
ok jon, whose?...i don't know much abt crass at all, but i see their logo all over these kind of kids, so yeah.
There's this thing called AllMusic.com...
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 22:57 (nineteen years ago) link
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:06 (nineteen years ago) link
― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:09 (nineteen years ago) link
I think I'll leave that one for the R&B fans but I suspect a lot of purists would say yes.
"You seem to be assuming that punk rock always has to be what it was in 1977....so they can't win, right?
No, I am asserting that punk died in 1979 and that any attempt to revive it is intrinsically and by definition contrary to just about everything punk ever meant.
"Either they are "punks" that are just haplessly rehashing the sounds of 77 or they're not punks at all!"
And since "haplessly rehashing the sounds of 77" is itself intrinsically and by definition un-punk....
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:12 (nineteen years ago) link
Very good question: the answer to which is that punk was not just a fashion or a type of music - and one of the central concepts underlying punk was a belief that reviving the past rather than moving forward and creating your own scene was an exercise in pointless necrophilia.
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:18 (nineteen years ago) link
But for the most part, the lasting influences consist of music and a bit of fashion and DIY shows/records/zines (which really wasn't borrowed so much from UK punk) and (most of all) having fun with people of the same age and tastes. There's no yearning for the good old days or fear of 'keeping it real.'
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:24 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:26 (nineteen years ago) link
Punk was all about recontextualizing... You are so wrong.
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:26 (nineteen years ago) link
Regurgitating, no.
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:29 (nineteen years ago) link
And again, they're (mostly) not concerned with being 'punk' - they do what they do and it gets called punk. Youth culture is much more organic than you're giving them credit for.
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:33 (nineteen years ago) link
Surely it can only be a mischaracterisation if you believe there IS some continuity from Punk as it meant in 1977 to punk as it means in 2004: which is precisely the opposite standpoint from that which Milo and Eisbar are taking?
I also suspect from your spelling of mischaracterization (sic) that we’re in danger of getting into a debate about US punk vs. UK punk, which is something else again!
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:41 (nineteen years ago) link
Yes, I'm rather afraid it is now.
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 23:43 (nineteen years ago) link
http://www.tombraider4u.com/pictures/punk-kitty.gif
― elgolfo (elgolfo), Thursday, 5 May 2005 00:16 (nineteen years ago) link
I wouldn't trust the Crass reviewer.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 5 May 2005 01:08 (nineteen years ago) link
― g e o f f (gcannon), Thursday, 5 May 2005 01:42 (nineteen years ago) link
Just read this here whole thread. I'm almost 39, started listening to shit like the Necros and Dead Kennedys at about age 15 - 1982 or so. Grew up going to hardcore shows and even then people were making the same arguments as Mr. Osborne above - oh, it's different now, these kids have no idea, blah blah. Now it's twenty years later, and I own a house. We have punk shows in the basement. We book everything from local 15-year-olds to 40-something dudes like the Detonators or Iowaska (ex-Amebix).
Let me make this clear:
There is a clear and continuous line of DIY culture that can be drawn through all of this. Many of these young kids are very smart and the music they play sounds nothing like the hardcore I used to listen to. I am proud to have them within the lineage of punk music. The heaviest influences these days, paradoxically, seem to be folk music and noise. As a lifelong musical omnivore, I view this as a very positive development. And what about these kids who listen to The Ex or Fugazi? Those bands are practically first-wave punk themselves, don't the kids have a right to dig them and be inspired?
Jesus, this blathering about how punk is this or that is such crap. It's a cultural template that people impose their own ideals and dreams upon. Lester Bangs put it best... it's all about some kids who want to be fried out of their skins by the most scalding propulsion imaginable, for a night they can pretend lasts for the rest of their lives.
Over and out.
― sleeve, Thursday, 5 May 2005 05:34 (nineteen years ago) link
Well there is at least something admirably punk-like in the sheer brazen pig-headed obstinacy of that belief!
Please don't get me wrong: I'd like to remind you that I did actually start off right at the beginning by saying "I'm kind of ambivalent about this...." and I genuinely think it's fantastic that so much of the lineage of punk is being perpetuated in the ways that you describe (in particular, the musical eclecticism that you describe is wholly admirable - and to my mind shows a much greater correlation with that particular aspect of "Punk V1.0" than was evidenced by most of it's original successors in title at the time!) - I just very firmly believe that both the legacy of "Punk V1.0" and the present and future of "Punk VX.whatever" would be far better served if they weren't confusing matters by sharing the same name - and since we don't have the option of going back in time and changing the name of "Punk V1.0"....
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 5 May 2005 07:25 (nineteen years ago) link
― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 5 May 2005 07:33 (nineteen years ago) link
― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:22 (nineteen years ago) link
(Fuck! Why couldn't I have thought of that yesterday when it might have actually been funny?)
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:29 (nineteen years ago) link
― latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:33 (nineteen years ago) link
― latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:34 (nineteen years ago) link
-- sleeve (sleev...), May 5th, 2005.
otm.
― latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:36 (nineteen years ago) link
so you mean minor threat, black flag, bad brains, etc. dont count as punk?
"I also suspect from your spelling of mischaracterization (sic) that we’re in danger of getting into a debate about US punk vs. UK punk, which is something else again!"
i think thats a LARGE part of the issue actually.
― latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:45 (nineteen years ago) link
Speaking both as a Limey and as an old (former? ex?) punk, it seems to me that it's not just the writers but the members of those youth culture themselves.
"so you mean minor threat, black flag, bad brains, etc. dont count as punk?"
Speaking both as a Limey and as an old (former? ex?) punk, it seems to me that "Hardcore" is a much beter name for them, don't you agree?
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:56 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 5 May 2005 09:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Thursday, 5 May 2005 09:21 (nineteen years ago) link
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Thursday, 5 May 2005 09:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 5 May 2005 09:37 (nineteen years ago) link
x-post 4vr|l roxx fuk all yuo h4t4z
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 5 May 2005 09:48 (nineteen years ago) link
Oh and before anyone starts: yes, you Septics invented it - but (as has frequently been the case) you largely failed realise what you'd got or to do anything particularly useful with it until us Limey's took it, rationalised it, repackaged it, and sold it back to you!
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:03 (nineteen years ago) link
― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:27 (nineteen years ago) link
We done here?
― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:08 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:33 (nineteen years ago) link
Not if they're swaddling themsevles in the iconography of the Punk Rock that happened two decades before their birth it isn't.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:25 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:26 (nineteen years ago) link
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 5 May 2005 13:30 (nineteen years ago) link