Indie Guilt: C/D

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Ethan, I wouldn't say that most people don't like it; it's that most people haven't heard it. People like gygax want to say that IF they did, then they would like it; people like you want to say that they wouldn't.

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I checked my watch, and in fact this thread spawned 57 replies in 8 seconds. That is what is known as "striking a nerve".

― dleone, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

it doesnt sell enough records and most people dont listen to it

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

namdam have you stopped beating your wife?

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If it was already addressed before, why not take a stab at answering a second time, correcting previous mistakes, asserting new theories?

Because the set-up of greenspun.com means that all previous topics remain 'live' - so it's just as easy to answer and take up points in that thread as this one.

― Tom, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tom, I enjoyed your thoughts. You're no apologist, and as such, not the subject of the question (and you somewhat answered the "Indie Shame: C/D?" question in the earlier post). If anything, Indie was your gateway to music appreciation. Like a junkie's memories of smoking a little pot in the 7th grade.

Jess, I've deeply enjoyed Jess' writing on West Coast post- hardcore circa 1989-1993. There's no lack of respect here.

Clarke, the link was to illustrate my confusion. I'm confused by some of the strength and breadth of opinions here, but the most stringiest anti-indie backlash has been at the hands of those who were head deep in it during the mid-90s. Reminds me of my neighbor Bill Scott who signed up to for the war, got shipped to Vietnam, now despises the USA.

― http://gygax.pitas.com, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Enough" records?!

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

whats the metal for ten times platinum?

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Reminds me of my neighbor Bill Scott who signed up to for the war, got shipped to Vietnam, now despises the USA.

I don't find this difficult to wrap my head around.

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

OK now we're getting somewhere.

Mark S fave quote (one of them) - "We were promised the end of the world and we didn't get it", Charlotte Pressler.

"We were promised [XXXXXXX] and we didn't get it." - there is some [XXXXXXX] - might be different for everyone, might be similar - which indie promised and reneged on. The question is, what? I'm already late for meeting my friends tonight but I'll have a think about that.

― Tom, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

hair metal

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

haha your neighbour is indie!!

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Priceline commercials S-K did as Shatner-Kinney = best thing they evah did

― Andy K, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(Because the only way to explain the fury you rightly detect, Gygax, is to think of it in terms of, well, love.)

― Tom, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

america = destinys child/missy elliot, vietnam = tortoise, 'war' = ilm

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Uh, Ethan, what's with the commercial landmark kick? I fully agree that indie can't pretend it's the center of the universe and all, but like Clarke said, what exactly is 'enough' records?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

back when I did listen to indie all the time I was ashamed of it because I thought nobody would understand. Then my freshman year in college I meet this hipster gal from LA who's all about morrisey and also loves Palace and it freaks me out because Will Oldham was supposta be my special thing and I'm thinking "no way you like palace, you're not deep enough and morose enough and..." but of course I don't say it. I think that right about then I stopped listening to indie as much or feeling as ashamed when I did.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ethan: "war" = nu-ilm.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

the persecution complex is what keeps "indie" alive. If it's not jocks, it's squares. if it's not the scene getting too much attention, it's the scene not getting enough attention. if it's not too few kids at the shows, it's too many kids at the shows. it's the radio stations, it's the record labels, it's the sell-outs, it's commercials, it's drugs n booze ... something's always out to get poor widdle baby pisspants indie. now it's ILM. whinge whinge whinge. who cares?

― fritz, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

group hug!! (except ethan => he is alien hiphop ew)

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

can you imagine destinys child being worried about selling too many records?? (this is why they are good)

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

what makes indie an object to be deplored any more than anything?

How else are the conforming non-conformists going to distance themselves from their identical brethern? In their quest to be different, they end up with the same clothing, the same piercings, the same tattoos, and the same convoluted take on individuality. So as a reaction to that, they need a common enemy, something to despise (because despising Top 40 would mean you care enough about Top 40 to acknowledge its existence when apathy is all the rage, punny enough).

The elitests deplore indie because it's what they know best, it's what they once enjoyed and now find unacceptable because it doesn't meet their fleeting, mercurial expectations. Instead of risking ridicule for being unlike their decidedly biased peers, they decide it's acceptable to trash the genre they once supported because it couldn't possibly be like it was in the good ol' days. But as they continue to disassociate themselves from the actual music in favor of critiquing the entire genre, their opinion becomes increasingly moot.

And anyone under the age of 20 shouldn't be talking about "the kids."

― namdam, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(Because the only way to explain the fury you rightly detect, Gygax, is to think of it in terms of, well, love.) -- Tom ([email protected]), May 29, 2002.

so, indie would be like your middle school girl or boy friend...while these other tastes are more developed relationships you had as you got older?

not really indie's lack of depth, but your understanding of music/love of a genre as you matured as a music lover?

if that's what you're going on, that's probably the best explanation offered so far, in my humble opinion.

― msp, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

namdam: you prefer that only people over 40 talk about the kids?

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

that's ok with me, kids

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

you like indie music -> you probably have to support the idea that indie music is 'better' than the rest of that awful etc etc -> you do while realizing that this is probably not true -> this conflicts with indie's egalitarianism (as it is) and you make cursory efforts to show that you're not a closed-minded exclusionist by buying tribe called quest and soul jazz cds -> indie guilt!

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mark S,

I haven't had time to beat any wives lately because I've been so busy throwing away all of my records with the same number of songs on each side.

Cheers.

― namdam, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i think slayer are really good.

― jel --, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

http://members.aol.com/ dubplatestyle/mase.jpg

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tom, my hasty answer (to be elaborated on later) is that XXXXXXX (god I actually hit back on the browser and counted the Xs, what a lamo) is something like: complete fulfillment and satisfaction of your "musical needs" (a horrendous term, needs revising). When you first get into indie, it seems to give this to you - or, perhaps more appropriately, you let it give it to you. But later on, things change, and maybe indie just doesn't cut it for you anymore. I need to leave, too, but I will write more about this later. It deserves its own thread.

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sterling,

I prefer that the kids not talk about "the kids" because they are, in fact, "the kids." People over 40 can do whatever the hell they want.

Cheers.

― namdam, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

b-but why did you buy them in the first place? can't you COUNT!?

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i stand by my maximumrocknroll joke.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(that was to jel)

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like indie. I don't feel guilty. Maybe I'm lying to myself! I like pop music too. I don't really feel guilty about that either. I like old timey country music. I'm obviously compenstating here for liking indie and pop music guilt here.

― Jeff, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Josh, that was brill. It does sort of feel like, when you get into indie, that you must be monogamous to it - well, this is the sort of music I like now, and this is *all* I like... and I'm happy with it, really, I am! But I'm not like a puritan or anything, I mean, my wife and I try a lot of crazy positions and buy a lot of dub!

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

THE ANSWER IS YES

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

an·he·do·ni·a
Pronunciation Key (ahn-hee-donh-dn-ah)
n.
The absence of pleasure or the ability to experience it.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

All this hand-wringing about indie is funny. I buy a whack of records each year and some are indie and some are not. It doesn't even consciously enter into my mind what fuckin' label a record is on anymore. It's just not worth the brainwaves.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Jess that was so emo.

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It IS possible to like both Sleater-Kinney and Missy Elliott, right? I mean, so long as you take them as musical entities and not some overblown sociopolitical signifiers and overall more or less avoid acting like this guy?

― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i·ro·ny
Pronunciation Key (r-n, r-)
n. pl. i·ro·nies

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).
An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Atheism is the conventional way to be unconvential". Or is it hating indie? Ah....

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

in·die
Pronunciation Key (nd)
n. Informal
One, such as a studio or producer, that is unaffiliated with a larger or more commercial organization.
An artistic work produced by an independent company or group: “ [His film] showed that indies could... take in millions at the box office” (Liesl Schillinger).

adj.
Of, relating to, or being an indie: an album of indie rock; an indie film company.

― holy shit, i am not making this up., Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

you just slipped up one on yr pronunciation key, jess

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Atheism is GRATE.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

all definitions provided by the fine people at dictionary.com, used for purposes historical or satirical.

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(how does the irony pronunciation work? and does the fact that it doesn't prove that irony doesn't exist - as ironically enuff, it in fact doesn't...)

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Do they still make indie music?

― jel --, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

and bringing it all back home:

guilt:
Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.
Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing.

Why the guilt, ex-indie rockers? new answers please.

― http://gygax.pitas.com, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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