pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

and if you just want to know what the best music is there's http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/

guess what comprises that site's lists tho

In the span of a few posts we went from ILM considering its own poll of the 80s where Daydream Nation and Nation of Millions are banned, to slagging Pitchfork for only looking for the “coolest” music.

I haven't looked at this list and don't plan to, but I would like to say one thing about this observation:

no AOR/MOR like REO, Air Supply, Rick Springfield, Styx, Bonnie Tyler, Bryan Adams, John Cougar Mellencampm, Christopher Cross, Foreigner

This is kind of equivalent to the 70s though, isn't it? On similarly-minded best of the 70s lists, we don't see much love for these kinds of standard pop / rock bands. Granted, that stuff wasn't as prevalent in the 70s, but when was the last time 'Afternoon Delight' received any sort of retroactive love? It's been a while; and with good reason.

no hair metal Warrant, Ratt, Def Leppard, Cinderella, Quiet Riot, Whitesnake etcetc even Van Halen (unless I missed 1984)

This is probably for the best that these kinds of bands are left out. Overwhelmingly, these bands were not very unique, nor all that interesting. If the list was supposed to be "most popular" then their absence would be a valid discrepancy.

no new wave one/two hits like Cutting Crew, Fixx, Kim Wilde, Simple Minds, Wang Chung, Men at Work

Definitely agree that Simple Minds and Men at Work should have had at least a little representation. But again, with a lot of these types of bands, they just weren't that remarkable besides the big single.

no Eliminator by ZZ Top

And thank fuck for that.

no Police Synchronicity

That's pretty inexcusable. My pick would have been Zenyatta Mondatta though.

no Dire Straits Brothers in Arms

Again, most popular ≠ best. While I do agree that Dire Straits deserve a mention for earlier albums, Brothers in Arms has not aged well. My pick would have been Love Over Gold.

none of the huge soundtracks that were so dominant like Top Gun, Footloose, Dirty Dancing, Pretty in Pink, Flashdance

Most popular ≠ best.

no boomer comeback stuff like Henley, Raitt, Heart, Boston, Aerosmith, Genesis/Collins

Of the ones you mentioned, I'm glad that none were represented. Did Tom Petty have much of a showing in this list? If not, he should have. I know he's not a 60s guy, but I definitely include him in that mode of bands. I mean, he was in the Traveling Wilburies.

no pop/R&B (except Madonna, Whitney) stuff like Paula Abdul, Bobby Brown, Bananarama

What about the early New Jack Swing stuff, like Guy? That stuff definitely needed to be repped for.

Also, let's not forget that the 70s list they did a few years back had absolutely zero prog rock on it. So, yeah. That's what we're dealing with when discussing pfork lists.

In general, yeah: I'm over these kinds of lists. I know that most of the bands / albums I hold really dear to me will never make one of these lists, so my interest is very little. Anymore, it's just not that much fun when you basically know what the top picks are going to be. Further, it's really taking the fun out of it when a site like pfork starts to renege on their old lists and revise. That just takes a lot of the earnestness and genuineness out of it. Definitely feels at this point like they're just trying to appease an audience. "Hey, don't like this list? It's okay, wait a few years and we'll do another one."

"Kinda funny" isn't really slagging off, tbf. xp

Personally I’m stoked on listening to stuff on the list I hadn’t heard before, and I’m stoked on most of this thread’s discussion on what’s missing. There is something fruitful on all that. But the horse jockeying stuff is irrelevant. The ultimate goal of the list and the attendant discussion is to expand the canon. No need to besmirch the site or it’s writers.

Most popular ≠ best.

ums was not saying this

Yeah I don’t think (most) anyone here is “slagging” or besmirching?

i for one tried to vote for the guy s/t bc it's 100 percent amazing (i'd vote for it over don't be cruel even) but like... it doesn't have that kind of momentum among the majority of ppl who contributed to this list

when was the last time 'Afternoon Delight' received any sort of retroactive love?

July 10, 2018: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/07/10/skyrockets-in-flight-afternoon-delight-the-story-behind-starland-vocal-bands-one-big-hit/?utm_term=.9ad80728c46b

(this is serious -- I genuinely have no idea what people want from these lists. it seems like no matter what people pick, it's wrong, which is incredibly demoralizing)

― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 11:00 AM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

As a music critic you should know that once something is published it is fair game to criticize it. Plus, every time you establish a canon and rejects some people's favorite music you are going to find yourself having to justify your choices. I don't think those things are complicated or controversial.

no Eliminator by ZZ Top

And thank fuck for that.

FIGHTING WORDS

I know that, but there's a difference between being criticized and always being criticized with no counterbalance

ums didn't even say those albums should be on the list

Is Pitchfork going to post the individual ballots? I would be interested in seeing any ILX posters' ballots.

FIGHTING WORDS
irl lol

yeah but eliminator should be on the list

xps

these lists do have a use in being decent gateways for people exploring older decades of music for the very first time and i think despite the many blindspots this thread has pointed out the new p4k one is the best attempt at a genuinely broad and inclusive 80s canon. its interesting to compare it to the then-contemporary rolling stone list which is certainly more inclusive than the 2002 p4k list but seems very idiosyncratic these days - like i dont think young people even here in australia care about midnight oil anymore

What is the point of listicles if not having readers pick it apart and lauding/criticizing it?

people exploring older decades of music for the very first time

let's be honest, who are these ppl that are reading Pfork and exploring older decades of music for the very first time? That seems like two mutually exclusive sets to me.

these lists don't serve any purpose apart from harvesting clicks from old music nerds

xp lots of kids who only know anything from the strokes onward

or radiohead i guess

as a contributor it led me to discover a lot of new-to-me music which is p cool, i hope the bottom 100 serves the same purpose for a reader

I know that, but there's a difference between being criticized and always being criticized with no counterbalance

Several ILXors were saying it's a solid list upthread. I don't think the response has been overwhelmingly negative, it's just more interesting (and entertaining) to focus on the omissions.

I honestly love the list, as I said there's about 40 albums I'm now compelled to listen to that I haven't heard or even heard of. This is how I approach lists in general, but somehow I doubt that's how readers will approach and part of it is the numerical order, like saying that Control is better than Paul's Boutique seems more important than saying 'That Laurie Spiegel record might be interesting to you'. Like even approaching the list the way I said I did, like a gold mine of new content, I found myself trying to understand why SY's Sister didn't place.

New theory is that numerical lists are inherently rockist.

if there were a way to do these kind of lists without ranking i'd be very into it but... people click on these things to see the ranking

lots of kids who only know anything from the strokes onward

Kids still know about The Strokes?

maybe this is just my experience having been an extremely online music nerd teen a decade ago but digging through various p4k best of lists was certainly pretty formative for discovering music beyond Muse

let's be honest, who are these ppl that are reading Pfork and exploring older decades of music for the very first time? That seems like two mutually exclusive sets to me.

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, September 11, 2018 11:50 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Pitchfork first lists of the 80s and the second they did for the 90s had a massive impact on me.

nobody knows about the Strokes

xp

no i had an identical experience ufo

the '90s and '80s pfork lists were my record buying guides for years xxp

if there were a way to do these kind of lists without ranking i'd be very into it

Mm. I mean, I've contributed to a couple of these lists in recent years and all, but there's a reason I stopped making my own ranked lists many years back.

OK then! news to me about these lists' impacts

xxp

I don't care about the ranking because my ballot is invariably so different from what gets published that my rankings get lost in the overall number sludge

as a contributor it led me to discover a lot of new-to-me music which is p cool, i hope the bottom 100 serves the same purpose for a reader

― princess of hell (BradNelson), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 11:52 AM (fifty-four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It reminded me to finally check out Nuno Canavarro beyond Mr. Wollogallu, which I love!

xps ime the post-punk revival is a big cut-off point w younger people for some reason, at least w rock (e.g. w hip-hop it's more like the early '10s onward)

Is Pitchfork going to post the individual ballots? I would be interested in seeing any ILX posters' ballots.

― jmm, Tuesday, September 11, 2018 11:47 AM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

... and there it is

that said I'm probably an outlier here because I never really used collective lists as a method of finding new music -- I mostly just followed my own taste and comparisons to other artist. like, I didn't get into Kate Bush because of her placement on any list, but because someone compared her voice to Sarah Brightman once

Also its insane to say that Peter Gabriel's three 80s records had no impact on the hipster zeitgeist of the last 15 years

I was happy to see Melt, but come on, So is the correct answer.

maybe this is just my experience having been an extremely online music nerd teen a decade ago but digging through various p4k best of lists was certainly pretty formative for discovering music beyond Muse

― ufo, Tuesday, September 11, 2018 10:54 AM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this was true for teenaged-me too fwiw

(the only real complaint I have about lists in general, as A Thing, is that generally people's criteria for adding something to this kind of list include that a specific record must have had some kind of influence on other musicians, the world, etc. which is understandable but does lead to a self-reinforcing aspect, because the way records get that influence is via lists like these, and so on.)

Also its insane to say that Peter Gabriel's three 80s records had no impact on the hipster zeitgeist of the last 15 years

Like I said, I haven't looked at this list, but I can guarantee there's no Chameleons, no Sound, no Feelies, etc. I name these bands because they're among my favorites, but if we're going to just go off retroactive "how influential was this?" kind of rankings, those bands need to be repped for. But they never will be. Not on lists like this.

xxp It's broad and inclusive from a specifically UK/US viewpoint though, right? I mean, I think I counted two albums in the top 50 that weren't US or UK and those were both from Ireland. There's nothing wrong with that - in fact (as noted upthread by various people) part of the fun of these things is understanding more about what the people making the list think is cool.

It's certainly broader than their previous 100 but lobbing in a tiny handful of African (or even Jamaican!) releases into the lower reaches of the list feels like thoughtless, token nods at breadth. Of course, it's actually a reflection that the majority of the contributors from a particular (cultural) place and time. I realise it's not exactly a news story that most Pitchfork contribs aren't terribly interested in (say) African music from the 80s. But I do think we should keep in mind that the list's "breadth" is pretty bounded.

Anyway these lists are fun for disagreeing with, that's what I use them for.

Gabriel not on Spotify until this summer also a factor.

Many xposts

Ah, I must have missed that Melt was on there

Feelies are at #107

And truly, if we're going down that route of "obscure, but really influential" albums, Shrimp Boat's Speckly should be in the top twenty. But again, that will never happen.

if anyone needs the list written out so they can quickly ctrl+f before posting http://www.brooklynvegan.com/pitchfork-lists-the-200-best-albums-of-the-1980s/