I think ums was pretty up-front about his post - that this list is one thing (a list of music from the 80s that certain people think is cool right now) as opposed to another (a list of music that was actually significant in the 80s)
What's the difference?
― The Silky Veils of Alfred (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:20 (five years ago) link
What was significant in 1989 and 2002 is less significant in 2018. That's the nature of history and changing tastes among critics and artists.
― The Silky Veils of Alfred (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:21 (five years ago) link
xpost Er, impact?
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:22 (five years ago) link
the list is obv trying to say something about the 80s, otherwise why limit it to a specific decade in the first place, but then in a way it fails because it's more interested in finding the best/coolest music than the music most representative of the decade
― niels, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:23 (five years ago) link
in a way it fails because it's more interested in finding the best/coolest music than the music most representative of the decade
but... that's... the literal point of the list
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:23 (five years ago) link
if someone asks you what your favorite food is you don't consult the national restaurant association to figure out what the most popular lunch item is in 2018, you say what your favorite food is
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:24 (five years ago) link
It's gonna be tragic when the 2010s list comes out and completely snubs Foster the People and Imagine Dragons
― wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:24 (five years ago) link
The counterpoint is if the list doesn’t really “reflect the times” as they were lived, doesn’t the “1980s” aspect feel kinda arbitrary?
― stan in the place where you work (morrisp), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:26 (five years ago) link
Would the list work if it were not ranked? Why rank the albums at all?
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:27 (five years ago) link
yeah, exactly, that's the other thing -- this kind of complaint is never wielded in the opposite direction. there is no huge sledgehammer of moral force wielded against non-millennials for not listing the No. 1 album of 2018 as Post Malone
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:27 (five years ago) link
What if it was just chronological by release date?
― stan in the place where you work (morrisp), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 11:26 AM (twenty-eight seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
take it up with the person who decided 10 was a round number
it's kinda funny how looking through this list it has so little to do with so much of the actual music that was *everywhere* in the 80sno AOR/MOR like REO, Air Supply, Rick Springfield, Styx, Bonnie Tyler, Bryan Adams, John Cougar Mellencampm, Christopher Cross, Foreignerno hair metal Warrant, Ratt, Def Leppard, Cinderella, Quiet Riot, Whitesnake etcetc even Van Halen (unless I missed 1984)no new wave one/two hits like Cutting Crew, Fixx, Kim Wilde, Simple Minds, Wang Chung, Men at Workno Eliminator by ZZ Top, no thrash except Metallicano Police Synchronicityno Dire Straits Brothers in Armsnone of the huge soundtracks that were so dominant like Top Gun, Footloose, Dirty Dancing, Pretty in Pink, Flashdanceno boomer comeback stuff like Henley, Raitt, Heart, Boston, Aerosmith, Genesis/Collinsno pop/R&B (except Madonna, Whitney) stuff like Paula Abdul, Bobby Brown, Bananarama
no AOR/MOR like REO, Air Supply, Rick Springfield, Styx, Bonnie Tyler, Bryan Adams, John Cougar Mellencampm, Christopher Cross, Foreignerno hair metal Warrant, Ratt, Def Leppard, Cinderella, Quiet Riot, Whitesnake etcetc even Van Halen (unless I missed 1984)no new wave one/two hits like Cutting Crew, Fixx, Kim Wilde, Simple Minds, Wang Chung, Men at Workno Eliminator by ZZ Top, no thrash except Metallicano Police Synchronicityno Dire Straits Brothers in Armsnone of the huge soundtracks that were so dominant like Top Gun, Footloose, Dirty Dancing, Pretty in Pink, Flashdanceno boomer comeback stuff like Henley, Raitt, Heart, Boston, Aerosmith, Genesis/Collinsno pop/R&B (except Madonna, Whitney) stuff like Paula Abdul, Bobby Brown, Bananarama
This was largely true even of critics' lists that were published in the 80s: https://www.listchallenges.com/rolling-stone-100-best-albums-of-the-eighties
Or take Pazz & Jop from the year of Slippery When Wet, Whitney Houston, Brothers in Arms, and No Jacket Required: https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres86.php
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:28 (five years ago) link
katherine you don't need to defend the list, I don't think anyone has an issue with it
― niels, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:29 (five years ago) link
it's just funny that the zeitgeist can get kinda lost in the crate digging
If anything some of those subgenres and whatnot could have used a sidebar. Because Van Halen's 1984 is awesome. (And had lots of hits, for those who count such things.)
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:30 (five years ago) link
I remember reading that RS list as a 10yo rock fan and being startled that the #1 rock album of the past decade was by some band that I'd never heard and no one I knew listened to. xps
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:30 (five years ago) link
haha I think that issue was the first RS issue I ever bought/read
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:31 (five years ago) link
If you just want ant to recreate the sound of the era you've got historical billboard charts for that
― wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:31 (five years ago) link
and if you just want to know what the best music is there's http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/
― niels, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:35 (five years ago) link
guess what comprises that site's lists tho
― lowercase (eric), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:36 (five years ago) link
In the span of a few posts we went from ILM considering its own poll of the 80s where Daydream Nation and Nation of Millions are banned, to slagging Pitchfork for only looking for the “coolest” music.
― sctttnnnt (pgwp), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:37 (five years ago) link
I haven't looked at this list and don't plan to, but I would like to say one thing about this observation:
no AOR/MOR like REO, Air Supply, Rick Springfield, Styx, Bonnie Tyler, Bryan Adams, John Cougar Mellencampm, Christopher Cross, Foreigner
This is kind of equivalent to the 70s though, isn't it? On similarly-minded best of the 70s lists, we don't see much love for these kinds of standard pop / rock bands. Granted, that stuff wasn't as prevalent in the 70s, but when was the last time 'Afternoon Delight' received any sort of retroactive love? It's been a while; and with good reason.
no hair metal Warrant, Ratt, Def Leppard, Cinderella, Quiet Riot, Whitesnake etcetc even Van Halen (unless I missed 1984)
This is probably for the best that these kinds of bands are left out. Overwhelmingly, these bands were not very unique, nor all that interesting. If the list was supposed to be "most popular" then their absence would be a valid discrepancy.
no new wave one/two hits like Cutting Crew, Fixx, Kim Wilde, Simple Minds, Wang Chung, Men at Work
Definitely agree that Simple Minds and Men at Work should have had at least a little representation. But again, with a lot of these types of bands, they just weren't that remarkable besides the big single.
no Eliminator by ZZ Top
And thank fuck for that.
no Police Synchronicity
That's pretty inexcusable. My pick would have been Zenyatta Mondatta though.
no Dire Straits Brothers in Arms
Again, most popular ≠ best. While I do agree that Dire Straits deserve a mention for earlier albums, Brothers in Arms has not aged well. My pick would have been Love Over Gold.
none of the huge soundtracks that were so dominant like Top Gun, Footloose, Dirty Dancing, Pretty in Pink, Flashdance
Most popular ≠ best.
no boomer comeback stuff like Henley, Raitt, Heart, Boston, Aerosmith, Genesis/Collins
Of the ones you mentioned, I'm glad that none were represented. Did Tom Petty have much of a showing in this list? If not, he should have. I know he's not a 60s guy, but I definitely include him in that mode of bands. I mean, he was in the Traveling Wilburies.
no pop/R&B (except Madonna, Whitney) stuff like Paula Abdul, Bobby Brown, Bananarama
What about the early New Jack Swing stuff, like Guy? That stuff definitely needed to be repped for.
Also, let's not forget that the 70s list they did a few years back had absolutely zero prog rock on it. So, yeah. That's what we're dealing with when discussing pfork lists.
In general, yeah: I'm over these kinds of lists. I know that most of the bands / albums I hold really dear to me will never make one of these lists, so my interest is very little. Anymore, it's just not that much fun when you basically know what the top picks are going to be. Further, it's really taking the fun out of it when a site like pfork starts to renege on their old lists and revise. That just takes a lot of the earnestness and genuineness out of it. Definitely feels at this point like they're just trying to appease an audience. "Hey, don't like this list? It's okay, wait a few years and we'll do another one."
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:38 (five years ago) link
"Kinda funny" isn't really slagging off, tbf. xp
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:39 (five years ago) link
Personally I’m stoked on listening to stuff on the list I hadn’t heard before, and I’m stoked on most of this thread’s discussion on what’s missing. There is something fruitful on all that. But the horse jockeying stuff is irrelevant. The ultimate goal of the list and the attendant discussion is to expand the canon. No need to besmirch the site or it’s writers.
― sctttnnnt (pgwp), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:41 (five years ago) link
ums was not saying this
― princess of hell (BradNelson), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:42 (five years ago) link
Yeah I don’t think (most) anyone here is “slagging” or besmirching?
― stan in the place where you work (morrisp), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:42 (five years ago) link
i for one tried to vote for the guy s/t bc it's 100 percent amazing (i'd vote for it over don't be cruel even) but like... it doesn't have that kind of momentum among the majority of ppl who contributed to this list
― princess of hell (BradNelson), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:43 (five years ago) link
when was the last time 'Afternoon Delight' received any sort of retroactive love?
July 10, 2018: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/07/10/skyrockets-in-flight-afternoon-delight-the-story-behind-starland-vocal-bands-one-big-hit/?utm_term=.9ad80728c46b
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:45 (five years ago) link
(this is serious -- I genuinely have no idea what people want from these lists. it seems like no matter what people pick, it's wrong, which is incredibly demoralizing)
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 11:00 AM (thirty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
As a music critic you should know that once something is published it is fair game to criticize it. Plus, every time you establish a canon and rejects some people's favorite music you are going to find yourself having to justify your choices. I don't think those things are complicated or controversial.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:45 (five years ago) link
no Eliminator by ZZ TopAnd thank fuck for that.
FIGHTING WORDS
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:46 (five years ago) link
I know that, but there's a difference between being criticized and always being criticized with no counterbalance
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:46 (five years ago) link
ums didn't even say those albums should be on the list
― niels, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:47 (five years ago) link
Is Pitchfork going to post the individual ballots? I would be interested in seeing any ILX posters' ballots.
― jmm, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:47 (five years ago) link
FIGHTING WORDSirl lol
― niels, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:48 (five years ago) link
yeah but eliminator should be on the list
xps
― guardians of the gums: i am tooth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:48 (five years ago) link
these lists do have a use in being decent gateways for people exploring older decades of music for the very first time and i think despite the many blindspots this thread has pointed out the new p4k one is the best attempt at a genuinely broad and inclusive 80s canon. its interesting to compare it to the then-contemporary rolling stone list which is certainly more inclusive than the 2002 p4k list but seems very idiosyncratic these days - like i dont think young people even here in australia care about midnight oil anymore
― ufo, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:48 (five years ago) link
What is the point of listicles if not having readers pick it apart and lauding/criticizing it?
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:48 (five years ago) link
people exploring older decades of music for the very first time
let's be honest, who are these ppl that are reading Pfork and exploring older decades of music for the very first time? That seems like two mutually exclusive sets to me.
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:50 (five years ago) link
these lists don't serve any purpose apart from harvesting clicks from old music nerds
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:51 (five years ago) link
xp lots of kids who only know anything from the strokes onward
― lowercase (eric), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:51 (five years ago) link
or radiohead i guess
― lowercase (eric), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:52 (five years ago) link
as a contributor it led me to discover a lot of new-to-me music which is p cool, i hope the bottom 100 serves the same purpose for a reader
― princess of hell (BradNelson), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:52 (five years ago) link
Several ILXors were saying it's a solid list upthread. I don't think the response has been overwhelmingly negative, it's just more interesting (and entertaining) to focus on the omissions.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:52 (five years ago) link
I honestly love the list, as I said there's about 40 albums I'm now compelled to listen to that I haven't heard or even heard of. This is how I approach lists in general, but somehow I doubt that's how readers will approach and part of it is the numerical order, like saying that Control is better than Paul's Boutique seems more important than saying 'That Laurie Spiegel record might be interesting to you'. Like even approaching the list the way I said I did, like a gold mine of new content, I found myself trying to understand why SY's Sister didn't place.
New theory is that numerical lists are inherently rockist.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:53 (five years ago) link
if there were a way to do these kind of lists without ranking i'd be very into it but... people click on these things to see the ranking
― princess of hell (BradNelson), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:54 (five years ago) link
lots of kids who only know anything from the strokes onward
Kids still know about The Strokes?
― MarkoP, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:54 (five years ago) link
maybe this is just my experience having been an extremely online music nerd teen a decade ago but digging through various p4k best of lists was certainly pretty formative for discovering music beyond Muse
― ufo, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:54 (five years ago) link
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, September 11, 2018 11:50 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Pitchfork first lists of the 80s and the second they did for the 90s had a massive impact on me.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:55 (five years ago) link
nobody knows about the Strokes
xp
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 15:55 (five years ago) link