Kanye West's new 2018 album

this guy is such a fucking moron, stop wasting time on him

Did not know that, Eric. Still seems like a stretch tbh.

'Ye' though, really? My bible classes are well in the past but...

xp

no disagreement there

it's not

fuck ye

lolz

I’m sorry for posting that

no harm but next time maybe take it to the worst journalism thread (if it's even journalism)

if kanye's going biblical and I wrote a jeeringly negative review of his album, i'd be seriously worried about she-bears rn. he already had a thing for bears iirc.

Man what happened to tinymixtapes, they’ve always had shit reviews but at least they had interesting taste.

Jordan just another shout out for an excellent review

Re: utility
This Is Us used "Death with Digity" from Carrie & Lowell in their premiere montage. I don't think that album really fits with Crow Looked at Me in terms of having no replay value.

yea Carrie & Lowell is more like Blue or Blood on the Tracks or even Lennon's Plastic Ono Band, which has a song in a trailer for the new Gus Van Sant movie. A Crow Looked at Me is a step beyond because there are more words, they're more upfront, and he doesn't have the cadence of a singer on a lot of it, he's talking/spilling out.

Well they're all different records with different reasons for why I cited them all as "single-usage". And there is no judgement-of-quality-or-artistry attached. It is interesting, really, when you think about it, that music (and maybe poetry) are the only forms of media that are typically designed for repeated usage. Films and books are typically single-usage, and thus can avoid J0rdan's requirement of "utility to the listener", and be as non-functional as needed-- I would describe like Salo or Bouvard & Pecuchet as pretty good examples of a film or a book that you "must see, must read" but are inherently non-functional and require no revisitation

Oh games of course need to be designed for repeated usage. I'm reminded of Hideo Kojima's inadvertently hilarious claim that "video games can never be art" because there is a requirement of functionality-- it has to run, basically-- the video game equivalent of "utility to the listener"

So to make a game about bipolar disorder would be possible (and has been done many times). But to make a game that is about the experience of being a game designer suffering from bipolar disorder would be impossible (the game wouldn't run)

I mean there are also games that fall into the "non-functional as needed" category -- thinking of like Victor Gijsbers' Vampires here, or the million "torture simulator but wait this one is about how torture is bad and you are complicit!"

How are we defining functional? If a game is even at basic level pablum to turn your brain off, it provides a purpose

Films and books are typically single-usage

? this is nonsense

comics and visual arts (painting etc.) also often bear repeated viewing. people hang pictures on their walls for a reason.

you know what art is created for single usage is food lol

how kanye west's poop-di-scoop transcends the idea of food as single-usage art

lol

it really was all downhill from poop-di-scoop huh

once you swallow some of kanye's shit, then you too can shit it out and swallow it again, over and over as many times as you like. just like Kanye! The ultimate in fan-artist integration.

@ katherine ya exactly, I always think of Slouching Toward Bedlam as the best example of a non-functional-yet-essential game

You can't really define "functionality" because it's subjective (first of all) but in general there are a tonne of albums and movies and books out there that don't "function" and yet are essential viewing/listening/reading. Bouvard & Pecuchet (and the chapter of 2666 that rips it off) is a pretty good example of a non-functional (yet essential) piece of lit-- loosely, Flaubert supports the content of the novel (two "intellectuals" try their hands at everything and fail) by wearing the reader down with the repetitiousness of the exposition-- Bolano copies Flaubert but does the same thing, overwhelming the reader with account after account of women being murdered--

Game reviews are always first-and-foremost talking about the functionality of the software-- frame rate, controls, ease of installation, ease of online play-- but some people have argued that certain games' lack of Perfect Functionality has contributed to the overall thesis of the game (Silent Hill 2)

With music it's a little weirder, lots of music remains known less because of the experience-of-listening-to-it and more because of the discourse that the music created-- 4'33", Metal Machine Music, Vexations, all of them essentially non-functional, especially the latter two, but important-- in fact, the very LACK of utility-for-the-listener is essential to the work's existence--

Certain albums are entirely functional on a technical level but too emotionally draining for me to want to listen to more than once and the three albums I mentioned above are examples or that--

But really if I had to redo this argument I can't really 1-to-1 compare ye to anything I've compared it to, as Kanye is a larger artist than any other musicians who've had non-functional breakdown albums-- less famous artists would just be ignored for their effort-- and ye is inherently less-functional than many other breakdown-albums (Third / Sister Lovers for example)

@ Οὖτις, I definitely argue that films and books are single-usage in comparison to music-- you don't rewatch a film or re-read a book until you've had sufficient time for your brain to have become unfamiliar with it

At least I don't

And I did think about food, food is single-usage media, but recipes are prob the best example I can think of (next to games) where functionality-begetting-repeated-usage is key

you can make the same recipe over and over again, but you literally can't re-use the exact same ingredients

idk I disagree w you about pretty much everything apparently

I mean Metal Machine Music lacks any "utility-for-the-listener" wtf does that mean? that the listener doesn't enjoy listening to it? gtfo with that, lots of people enjoy actually listening to that record.

I re-read and re-watch stuff all the time, I don't think I'm unique in this regard. If something I like is lying around or happens to be on or I'm just in the mood for it I have no problem re-engaging with it.

MMM isn't really comparable imo

capitalism's endless "YOU MUST HAVE NEW STUFF" drive for consumption/novelty is something to be resisted imo. savor what's good, the best material invites endless reappraisals/re-readings.

I mean, there's a difference (in general, not necessarily to the listener though) between "non-functional" art that was made that way on purpose for a reason and specific effect, and "non-functional" art that was made that way because for whatever reason its creator didn't or couldn't get it right, or didn't put in the necessary effort to

xp Οὖτις to If you can't agree with me that MMM is a good example of an album where its legend, and the subsequent discourse around it, is more important to music history than the actual musical content, then.. I don't really know how further to argue this point

One could argue too that Flaubert at least is writing in complete sentences "How Dare You Say He Is Non-Functional! I Really Enjoyed That Novel!" but that too would be missing the point

I'm getting at the idea that some work is less important for the experience of actually digesting the content it presents to you and more important for the discourse that it has created-- discourse sometimes as a result of its lack of functionality

Which is a response to the statement that J0rdan made in his review that ye doesn't present a narrative about bipolarity that he can completely engage with because the album lacks utility for the listener (paraphrasing)

I'm stating that sometimes discourse is created by a work regardless of how much utility and functionality the work carries

I'm not saying "I only read books once and rent movies and return them on time because I'm a good capitalist" I'm saying I have listened to Shostakovich's 10th symphony one hundred times at least in my life and I've read Paul Bowles twice.

@ katherine, ironic to consider that Kanye's deliberate attempt at creating a maguffin with "Scoop Poop" will possibly be the most "functional", most-played piece of music that he releases under his own name this year

more important to music history than the actual musical content, then

wait, so functionality is now linked to "importance to music history"? I thought functionality of a piece of work had more to do with an audience being able to engage the piece of work.

seems to me like your argument boils down to this piece of work being important because the person who made it has already been assigned important in the broader culture - which is m/l a rehash of that shitty tinymixtapes "review"

importance

more important to music history than the actual musical content, then

wait, so functionality is now linked to "importance to music history"?

No

I did not say that

Read my posts. Savour them even

got to love a discussion about the arts where words like utility, function, and importance are used without defining what they mean

I definitely argue that films and books are single-usage in comparison to music-- you don't rewatch a film or re-read a book until you've had sufficient time for your brain to have become unfamiliar with it

this is by your own description still literally multiple usage

if movies or works of music lasted as long as it takes to read even a fairly short novel then people would listen to them less imo

is ILE single usage

you called MMM "essentially non-functional", which I disagree with.

you responded with "If you can't agree with me that MMM is a good example of an album where its legend, and the subsequent discourse around it, is more important to music history than the actual musical content, then.. I don't really know how further to argue this point"

which doesn't have anything to do with what I said, which is why I asked why you were conflating the two points - functionality vs. importance to music history

xp

and I've read Paul Bowles twice.

the very definition of single usage

i think i kinda sorta see what you’re driving at but you need to slow down and savour your terms

some work is less important for the experience of actually digesting the content it presents to you and more important for the discourse that it has created

and this is the point I *really* disagree with, because thinking like this is how music criticism (and to some extent the broader music industry - certainly the mainstream industry) arrived at the sorry state it's in today, where the "narrative" of an artist's career is more important/of more interest than the work itself. Celebrity becomes everything, telling (and discussing and responding to and judging) the larger meta-story about the celebrity's life transcends the work itself. Which, I have to say as both a musician and a fan, I very much resent and hate, because it devalues the work itself, the actual content/creation that is supposed to be performing that function of engaging and absorbing the listener. With great works, I forget p much everything about the creator and myself and get immersed in it, it's like a little world to walk into, a comprehensive experience. But artists will be less inclined to even shoot for that goal if their primary concern isn't creating something good, it's just *being* interesting themselves.

xp

*chews thoughtfully*

@ Οὖτις

That's a very interesting thought and I totally agree. You're basically saying "I don't like it when musicians become solipsistic" and yep it's terrible

Re: definitions

Functionality: does it bang?
If it bangs, then it is functional, and immediately and obviously useful.
If it doesn't bang, then it is non-functional, and possibly not useful.
But wait! sometimes non-functional music has a use. It might not bang but it might do something else.

Relevance-to-music-history is determined over time and is in no way meant to reflect my own thoughts and feelings on "a piece of music", or "relevance" and whether or not it's worth talking about

MMM is an amazing noise album ymmv but ime reading/hearing about the circumstances & its context were merely a way to get me to check it out. I agree that focus on narrative/discourse at the expense of the work itself really sucks. That’s all window dressing, it can be fine, but a work of art should function successfully w/o any information outside of the text itself.

You're basically saying "I don't like it when musicians become solipsistic"

well, that's sort of part of it. I can think of lots of self-obsessed, monomaniacal artists that made great work, from Oscar Wilde to James Brown, in my opinion the crux of the problem is when the artist assumes a preeminent position over the art, and this is a phenomenon that is produced not just by the artist, but by the audience, the critical community, the broader culture. As soon as we have a majority of people thinking that what makes a work interesting is the creator's relationship to it, or the creator's state of mind when making it, or how it fits into the creator's overall life and lifestyle - that's when I start gnashing my teeth and rolling my eyes.

in terms of Kanye, there's no doubt in my mind that he feels his celebrity, his *image* is more important than his work - and this is being borne out in his work! This theme is literally front and center in his work. And the work suffers for it.

MMM is an amazing noise album ymmv but ime reading/hearing about the circumstances & its context were merely a way to get me to check it out. I agree that focus on narrative/discourse at the expense of the work itself really sucks. That’s all window dressing, it can be fine, but a work of art should function successfully w/o any information outside of the text itself.

― flappy bird, Thursday, June 7, 2018 12:30 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no

ymmv

in my opinion the crux of the problem is when the artist assumes a preeminent position over the art, and this is a phenomenon that is produced not just by the artist, but by the audience, the critical community, the broader culture.

I mean, this sentence could easily be used to describe John Lennon's Plastic Ono Band.