Kanye West's new 2018 album

Starlito belongs to the conversation.

This was a single point in a longer post. I'm not suggesting "successful people are smarter than normal plebes with mental illness"-- if that was implied, then whoops, my bad. I'm not suggesting that therapists in general are dumber than their patients. Or that they need to be smarter.

I'm saying that I've had experience, both as a person whose had (I think) seven different therapists of various styles helping me with my own bullshit, and as a person whose had many friends cycle through different therapists and relate to me their experiences. And I've had experience doing emotional labour for so many fucked up people. And generally, my observation is that people who are intelligent, highly intelligent, are better at constructing more elaborate defence mechanisms to protect themselves against treatment. And that also, highly intelligent people require highly intelligent therapists to be able to assail those defence mechanisms and break the mental loops that are causing them to keep cycling through whatever patterns they've fallen into.

I have a friend who endured a crushing rejection by a man he was in love with and had had a six month relationship with. What followed was two years of obsession, construction of elaborate narratives, and the spreading around of accusations of "narcissism" and such things around our mutual friend group. This man is the smartest person I've ever met. Whenever I tried to get through to him, to help me deal with the root of his problem-- dealing with rejection and accepting it-- rather than sublimating his pain into other projections, it felt like I was playing a game of chess against a grand master, and losing badly. He had built up so many defences and rhetorical narratives that it was impossible for me to make him understand.

In the cases of people who I mentioned, and Kanye himself, all of whom I assume are/were blindingly intelligent, and in a position (famous comedian/musician) that it's hard for anybody-- friend or therapist-- to truly understand or empathize with, I am simply stating that I would imagine (probably correctly) that finding a therapist who was good enough (and smart enough) to break through whatever neural loops were terrorizing the individual would be very difficult.

Whenever I tried to get through to him, to help me deal with the root of his problem-- dealing with rejection and accepting it-- rather than sublimating his pain into other projections, it felt like I was playing a game of chess against a grand master, and losing badly.

oooof I've dealt with this a few times and it's a real thing, working for hours at a time to sort out the insight they'll accept, knowing you may not be able to reuse it again later, like you're training a virus to defeat medication.

fgti is otm imo. It's what Lacan called 'les non-dupes errent'. Those who can't be fooled are in error. From what I gather it's a rather well-known phenomenon in psychology, especially when it comes to something like addiction - smart guys see through the platitudes of the 12 steps program and refuse to hand over their destiny to 'a higher power'. There's a brilliant portrait of this type of guy in Infinite Jest, I think it's Geoffrey Day.

I also would not be surprised if the kardashian machine discouraged him from seeking treatment (no treatment = no storylines) or even had it in some contract

er treatment = no storylines, you know what I mean

Haha wow I would definitely be surprised! But it's possible.

Also, pertaining to my last post, rethinking the mindsets of the famous content-creators that I know, I think it's less of an "these people are probably smart and thus hard-to-treat" issue, and more of a "requirement of their position to have an unshakeable belief in one's own importance and goodness" that would create difficulty in penetrating their psychological world, or pointing out erroneous or delusional modes of thought

What you are describing seems to be basic cognitive dissonance and I would expect any good therapist/psychiatrist to be professionaly trained to deal with that, with ease and habit. Now maybe that is not the prefered way for INTx50 succesful musician to work with their issues, different shrinks for different kinks I suppose. However, the further you describe the situation of your peers, the more it reminds that some people just do not have the humility to get the necessary help, which relates to Kanye and the new record pretty well, but has nothing to do with conventional definitions of success (I see that stuff in all workplaces, all social levels).

Controp but I think if you’re looking for mental illness records that are authentic I wouldn’t look towards most rap
Barnett nailed it on her new one

peak

Key - most. Kendrick and haze rule obvs

smart guys see through the platitudes of the 12 steps program and refuse to hand over their destiny to 'a higher power'

yeah this is wrong. the higher power in cases of AA or whatever is not necessarily God but whatever is holding power over you, whether addiction to a substance, or a toxic relationship, or destructive tendencies, etc. if these things are holding you down yet you continue thinking you've got it under control you are not outsmarting the therapy, you are merely lying to yourself. i will agree getting treatment is mostly about accepting you have a problem in the first place. but to think that some people are too smart for treatment is absurd.

fwiw the modern desire to say "Just work through your problems" as if finding the right therapist who will of course be able to cure you provided they have the proper training is fucking hilarious. also the idea of connoting success with intelligence also fucking hilarious.

the higher power in cases of AA or whatever is not necessarily God but whatever is holding power over you, whether addiction to a substance, or a toxic relationship, or destructive tendencies, etc.

sorry this is wrong, you are conflating the "higher power" that will help you overcome addiction/dependency/whatever with the power of the addiction/dependency that you admit you are powerless under

one's higher power in 12-step does not have to be god but it would be v weird to say your higher power is you addiction or dependency. the higher power is a positive force that you rely on through the twelve steps

sorry to be a 12-step pendant but i got family in this thing

*pedant

reed richards' superpower is to do a fucking great guest spot on one mf doom song and then disappear forever

― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Tuesday, June 5, 2018 12:26 PM (yesterday)

also one King Geedorah song

lol for a second I was like "they give out pendants? I want in"

"What we have instead is the most insular and impenetrable album from a man whose art has always gloriously been dedicated to the self. ye, as its cover makes clear, is his most bracingly personal album, a documentation of his increasingly public wrestling with his mental health and corroded life. (It’s also a nearly instant one at that—West claims he scrapped an entire album to record ye in the last month.) He has also never felt more distant; locked away in self-created prisons in Calabasas and Wyoming, the rapper whose relatability made him a cross-demographic superstar now has problems and solutions that are almost completely unrecognizable to the common man."

https://www.spin.com/2018/06/kanye-west-ye-review/

that review is OTM

idk if its been linked but i also like rawiya's review in fader

nice work by j0 tho, v dense read

Ah, is that ILM's "J0rdan"?

(er, sorry if I wasn't supposed to use full handle on same page as link, or something)

anyway, great writing

it's fire

Sounds like Kanye needs a high dose of psilocybin. Disassociate that ego forcefully.

jOrdan's review excellent and I'd like to read a much longer version of it.

some beautiful writing in there.

idk if its been linked but i also like rawiya's review in fader

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Tuesday, June 5, 2018 6:47 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think we linked it and I wasn't aware of it. Here it is, and it's fire:

"Across ye’s seven tracks, Kanye digs his heels in — no apologies, no regrets or introspection, just barely coherent thoughts and barely complete songs. In fact, its single most original idea, and the only one I hope seeps into the culture is its brevity, though even that is wielded unsuccessfully. The album’s clearest ideological precursor is “Facts,” the “Jumpman” facsimile first released on SoundCloud in late 2015. Just as on that song, which eventually ended up on The Life of Pablo, Kanye is defensive to the point of hysteria. When he references one of his recent most offensive comments on “Wouldn’t Leave” — “I say slavery a choice / They say, ‘how, Ye? ’/ Just imagine if they caught me on a wild day” — he conveniently treats his words as just another Kanye controversy, not an actual hurtful, damaging statement."

http://www.thefader.com/2018/06/04/kanye-west-ye-review

thanks for the kind words, everyone :-)

The most generous reading of ye is that West wants us to witness his public breakdown and the slow-motion implosion of his reputation. The album would then theoretically be a unique document of what happens at the intersection of mental health and celebrity. He would, maybe, accomplish his mission of asking the public to examine their expectations of artists. But in order for us to watch the spectacle of his life going up in flames, and to think about what has caused it and why, and to extend our empathy to him as a victim, we have to descend to the depths of West’s subterranean nihilism—to live where he lives. Alas, ye is in no way fascinating enough for that journey to be justified.

Still, the music at times almost makes it worth it.

I read: my empathy for this man’s mental health situation is dependent upon how much I appreciate his music

Can’t say I don’t feel the same, but this is kind of the crux, no?

Like, it’s the experience of anybody who has suffered from depression (i.e.) that one is at their neediest-for-validation-and-understanding when they are also at their most depressed-and-unlikeable

Diamanda Galas: “the truth about mental illness is that it’s the loneliness that kills you”

yeah i feel that. tho i do think we have to remember we’re talking about an album... it still has to have a utility to the listener as a piece of music. this is not kanye’s essay about his mental health. the spoken word opening of “i thought about killing you” is gripping but then... the rest of the song happens.

also i do think there’s a version of this album where kanye more honestly grapples with himself & his celebrity (i realize i’m wading into choppy waters here)

I'm privy to some behind-closed-doors shit about previous albums but not this one, but I'd be interested to hear that

And yeah re: "killing" that really is the problem with this record is the constant pivoting of subject/object/audience, it doesn't feel as if any stanza was written in the same headspace, like "you" is clearly Kim but seconds later he's casually making out with not-his-wife and commenting on her coke breath

lol for a second I was like "they give out pendants? I want in"

― nevertheless, he stopped (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:29 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

some 12 step groups do give out medallions!

Kanye is either not willing, not coherent or not smart enough to actually articulate his mental health issues. I wouldn't begrudge him whichever of those are true in any way.

But I don't buy the idea that it's more empathetic/helpful and less self serving to fill in the gaps where we think he falls short.

This,

I read: my empathy for this man’s mental health situation is dependent upon how much I appreciate his music

doesn't scan as fair at all.

There's no reason why the albums that make you feel most for an artist, have to be the ones you like more. I don't really revisit Carrie and Lowell but none of the Sufjan albums I do rinse made me feel for him anything like that did.

Ye could've been sonically unpleasant, which it isn't and still have evoked greater relatability than any of his other albums. That it utterly fails in this regard says nothing about our ability to feel beyond our own interests and everything about how fervent belief in your own genius, cripples your ability to express meaningful solidarity.

Yet this, in his words, is what he thinks he's doing,

“I believe ‘ye’ is the most commonly used word in the Bible, and in the Bible it means ‘you,’ so I’m you, I’m us, it’s us,” he said. “It went from Kanye, which means the only one, to being ye—just being a reflection of our good, our bad, our confused, everything. The album is a reflection of who we are.”

Maybe in light of everything else we know it isn't fair to take that at face value but either way, dude doesn't seem to be putting any more thought into this than he did into "slavery was a choice".

But in order for us to watch the spectacle of his life going up in flames, and to think about what has caused it and why, and to extend our empathy to him as a victim, we have to descend to the depths of West’s subterranean nihilism—to live where he lives. Alas, ye is in no way fascinating enough for that journey to be justified.

fgti otm in criticizing this. But the other thing I want to point out, again, is that for people like me, who has been forced to as it says 'live where he lives' - who has witnessed a similar breakdown in real life up close - this is very much besides the point, and the whole thing seems like the most generous gift he could give. And if other people don't think the music is good enough to make up for having to deal with the darkness, that's absolutely okay, but then the record is not for you. For me, it was really, really needed.

Lol how is his life going up in flames he just crapped out another shitty album for nerds, it took him two weeks, it’s not even a half hour of material, and he’s made a million bucks while accidentally raising bipolar disorder awareness by an order of magnitude more than Stephen Fry and a hundred charities ever could

I mean yeah everyone feels sorry for him and/or hates his guts but it would not appear that those are sensations he is unprepared to deal with

has Frederick literally ever made a post that wasn't scolding someone?

if he is indeed bipolar I hope Kanye gets help, he certainly has the resources to do so unlike so many people in my life I've seen go through incredible struggled with no safety net or finances.

I sympathize in the abstract but I don't know Kanye, he cares nothing about me and does not know I exist, or any of you. so I hope he can ease and suffering he has, I hope all people can, but J0rd's job was to write about the album, the public piece of art that was released through a corporation. he's under no obligation to pull his punches because of the public's perception of what Kanye's mental state is (and we still don't know for a fact that he is bipolar if we are not professionals who've evaluated him)

also really enjoyed all the reviews posted itt, great writing

yeah there's more effort evident in the reviews (and some of the reflections itt) than in the album itself

^^otm

UMS completely otm.

yea been wanting to have a go at this on my page but I'm not really interested in grappling with the mental health & celebrity ideas. it's just kind of a boring, shitty album, in a year where so much great stuff has already been released.

I get that he doesn't actually reference Trump here but I can't help but think he's morphed into that in some sense. see Trump's "Fake News Awards" which was this confusing and massively hyped up event that just wound up being a simple HTML page where he gripes about minor errors in reporting. ye is sort of the album equivalent of that. he's been called a genius so many times, now he's convinced that what the people really want is just whatever comes off the top of his brain.

some 12 step groups do give out medallions!

― cr.ht (crüt)

"ocarina of time" actually about link's recovery from alcoholism

I get that he doesn't actually reference Trump here but I can't help but think he's morphed into that in some sense. see Trump's "Fake News Awards" which was this confusing and massively hyped up event that just wound up being a simple HTML page where he gripes about minor errors in reporting. ye is sort of the album equivalent of that. he's been called a genius so many times, now he's convinced that what the people really want is just whatever comes off the top of his brain.

― frogbs

this is a well-known and long-standing problem with genius. genius has great idea, is told "that's stupid/crazy/will never work", proves those people wrong, never accepts criticism from anybody again, spends next 40 years attempting to transmute lead into gold or trying to persuade the world of the truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. more and more i'm wondering to what extent "genius" is even a helpful concept.

It's not

Not criticizing J0rdan's review-- I said "I feel the same way"-- or more precisely, "can't say I don't feel the same"--

Maybe this is a boring conversation for some but it's interesting for me (and I hope, others too)

it still has to have a utility to the listener as a piece of music.

This is an interesting statement. An album does have to have utility-to-the-listener in order to garner replay value, sell tickets, get good reviews. But I lots of the most effective albums (especially those about mental illness or tragedy) lack utility. I'm thinking about A Crow Looked At Me or Carrie And Lowell or even The Drift, all three of them albums I've listened to exactly once and all three of them albums I remember literally every moment of, albums that will not soundtrack my days but have stimulated my discourse

I think I need to unpack my thoughts a little more I'm trying to type a response but it's too many threads to collate properly rn

yeah Carrie & Lowell is a good example there. I've heard it twice and I think it's incredible, probably "better" than the Sufjans I've listened to dozens of times, but I never really want to hear it again. ye isn't quite like that though, I don't want to hear it again because it just didn't engage me at all, and all the memorable bits were (to me) incredibly stupid.