Kanye West's new 2018 album

Fgti keeps rolling hard. Great post. Good advice to your friend - certainly adopted that outlook myself

Jeff Weiss:

21 Grammy Awards and 21 million albums sold. These statistics exist as evidence for why West claims “I don’t take advice from people less successful than me.” But “Ye” exists as a reminder that even legitimate genius has limitations and everyone can use real friends to remind you of who you used to be and the out-of-touch caricature that you’ve become. A self-serious 23-minute crayon pamphlet of luxurious emptiness, “Ye” limps along as vacant and inert as the Wyoming skyline on its cover.

I don't think Kanye is currently being honest about his mental health at all.

I think Kanye has, in the past, written incredibly affecting songs about his mental health-- notably "Welcome To Heartbreak"-- and especially "Pinocchio Story", which itself sounds (to me) like a man confessing to having a laundry list of borderline symptoms caused by the loneliness of being too famous for anybody to relate to you on a human-to-human level.

What does frustrate me about this entire album and its roll-out and Kanye-discourse (yescourse?) is this. One of the recurring things that came up both in private and group therapy for me is that "it is terrible for the mind to care too much about what other people think of you". For a person in Kanye's position, where your livelihood is dependent upon what-people-think-of-you, and the livelihood-of-hundreds-of-thousands-of-other-people also, the stress of having to always be "on" and always be intelligent and attractive and talented and on the correct side of current race theory suggests to me that you can say bipolar, or borderline, or this or that or the next thing, but it's missing the point. And reviews (just scanning Jeff Weiss now) can say "adolescent", or "fool", or (as Kanye himself has wanted us to) explain away his behaviour as being the result of some kind of bipolar diagnosis

But it's more like this

It is hard to be black in America
There are not a lot of rich black role models for Kanye to be inspired by/look up to (thus his MJ fixation)
It is hard on your mental health to be #1 and have to continue impressing everyone
It is hard on your mental health to be as famous as he is
He is basically worried all the time
Because ultimately musicians are just nerds who are good at a computer program or an instrument

And I try to remind people of these things when they rush in to be expressively "I don't get what the big deal is" about other people who are exceedingly good at being black and rich and talented and in the public eye (Frank, Rihanna, Beyoncé)

Most people don't handle fame and fortune very well.

We need better support systems for rich and famous people.

Not sarcastically, though, and I made this point previously in one of these threads: it seems basically impossible for rich & famous people to get actually good healthcare.

Why?

The armchair psychoanalysis that Ye invites is exactly the kind of shit I can't stand. I understand it's a fine line between discussing mental health in good faith and then fall into stereotyping people, I understand that not everyone is armed with the ability to discuss those complicated personal health issues. It makes the conversation hard and I think some patience is required.

But this is not it. This is mental health issues as capitalist spectacle: tabloids/twitter get to ponder the nitty gritty with I don't know his relationship to Kardashian or the loss of his mother, cultural websites like Complex get their clicks with oohs and aaah of Kanye breakdown, and in the middle of all this Kanye is using the whole thing as a marketing device to collect goodwill post MAGA-baseball cap, paint himself as the genius he think he is ('name one genius that ain't crazy') and most probably making a shit-ton of money out of it. No solutions is given, no help is provided, no discourse can be made, Houston's death and addiction is a suddenly edgy aesthetic, egocentrism is celebrated.

The thing that defeats me the most is that Ye comes on the heel of several great records by black hip-hop artists that engages purposefully with mental health. He can't sit down and check the landscape as to position himself.

On the other hand someone like Fred relates hard to the record in a genuine way so I'm not opposed to be 100% wrong.

I told her that in my estimation, the best way that an artist can acknowledge their own privilege in their work is to not acknowledge it, or fret about it, as Fleet Foxes or tUnE-yArDs or Katy Perry have done so frustratingly, and instead to work it, to flex it, to be as extremely generous in one's work with that privilege. This is why Kanye was flying so high on MBDTF-- and Beyoncé is now-- and Bjork has oftentimes done: millions and millions of dollars spent on blowing our minds. When all that privilege is turned into generosity, it feels shared and productive and positive.

this is besides the bipolar point but a really interesting way of framing this. then again when referring to the privilege of katy perry & tune yards and the privilege of beyonce & kanye, we're talking about entirely different things. it's hard to imagine a katy perry album that uses largesse to address the kind of privilege she was talking about tho in a sense she *did* attempt that... she got her label to pay for her 72 hour streaming therapy session featuring deray and whatever. she wanted to blow our mind, but unfortunately was still katy perry. i do agree tho that fretting about it in the way the artists you mention did leaves everyone unsatisfied, and attempting to thread the needle in some other fashion more along the lines of "use your resources to make dope, highly collaborative music" is more agreeable though also harder.

xp Great post VHS, please list those records, I listen to nothing these days but am interested

@ Tomboto I don't know what you mean by that, rich/famous people have a tonne of support systems but "support systems" don't address the root problem imo, which I still can't really define, but seems to be (loosely) "a toxic relationship between artist and audience"

<3 J0rdan

xpost to self

On a personal level, the spectacle of mental health/Ye is made even more pathetic with it's rollout and cover. For someone who has suffered from heavy depression, I have found hiking and rediscovering nature to be key elements to my recovery. I am not the only one who experienced it, there is something therapeutic about nature. And there goes Kanye, taking a snap of a beautiful Wyoming mountain and plastering his sentence worthy of a I am with stupid t shirt store. There they are all are, in beautiful countryside Wyoming with their expensive clothes and expensive drugs not giving a shit about what's wonderful around them, dancing to the tune how edgy it is to be one of the 'crazies', like being bi-polar is some sort of fashion statement. It's laughable really, if not glauque.

a major component of all this kanye stuff right now imo is that he has no family of his own as far as i can tell aside from the kardashians, who treat everything as content for public consumption as a method of further ingraining themselves into pop culture. it strikes me as a particularly poor environment for someone w/ mental health issues, let alone kanye who is already prone to dealing with things in a very public fashion. i don't think has a great grip on himself right now and prob doesn't have very many ppl giving him good advice about how to be conducting his life at the moment aside from like john legend.

please list those records

Kendrick is the most obvious one

Thanks Goon. Also for the excellent point about including privilege in your art: my motto, as someone who is aiming to be a producer and helping out artists to make the most of their potential, is generally to be outward looking as you can reasonably be.

Why?

This is in the Hall of Fame of vicious P4K review closers:

"But I can admit that after ye ended unceremoniously the third or fourth time, I put on “Family Business,” and I thought about the kid from Chicago who wanted to be the biggest rapper in the world, who now lives in an empty-looking concrete mansion in Calabasas, who has stopped trying."

please list those records

Kendrick is the most obvious one

― Οὖτις, Monday, June 4, 2018 6:04 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, here is a small list I just compiled, those are mostly famous records and I'm sure one of the hip hop head of ilxor have more to list:
The entirety of Danny Brown's output.
Kendrick - To Pimp A Butterfly.
Chance the Rapper - Acid Rap, not exclusively, but it is there and it is poignant.
Earl Sweatshirt - Doris and I Don't Like Shit, I Don't Go Outside
Vince Staples - Summertime '06
Logic - Everybody
Stormzy - Gang Signs and Prayers.

I believe Tyler the Creator's Flower Boy is up there, but I haven't listened to it so someone else could vouch for it.

Also Jay Z included interesting discussions with Trevor Noah, Meek Mill and Michael B. Jordan about therapy, it's part of 4:44 promo cycle iirc, that's pretty great.

I think Kanye is being 100% honest about himself, while still being wrong. Those are two different things. He sounds SO MUCH like my uncle at his worst, and it's just really something I needed to experience expressed artistically, and had no idea I needed.

Any number of causes I suspect? An increased amount of quacks beating a path to their door, many of which probably inhabit the “candy man” category, and any doctor who tries too hard to hammer home a need for difficult behavioral change can be easily replaced by buying a new doctor.

The Janus face of what poor folks deal with, in some ways.

The fact that typical treatments for bipolar disorder completely fuck with your creative abilities, too. Many musicians I know who've been diagnosed bipolar 2 have gone off their meds after a year of sanity and turned into raging "THE DOCTOR WAS WRONG LOL" people with intense manic episodes

The fact that the dynamics surrounding "being a famous musician" mean such workplace perils as "if the traffic is bad or there's a technical SNAFU and you're three hours late to where you're supposed to be, ten thousand people will upend all the portapotties on site and spray paint FUCK KANYE everywhere and the internet will follow suit"

The fact that being a successful creative essentially involves breaking-a-mold, or at least improving upon it, and makes one resistant to therapy

Not to mention that if you're that successful, you're probably smart, smarter than most therapists that might be around to help you

And that one of the most successful forms of treatment is mindfulness meditation, which is rooted in accepting your failures and being OK with mistakes, which.. isn't really the case when you're in the public eye and millions of fans and the entire staff of Live Nations needs you to not fuck up at any time, or you might face legal action

And that the primary goal of a famous musician is to inspire, and there's nothing particularly inspiring about your fave being depressed, so the situation fuels itself

idk

Every musician over 25 I know cries every time I see them and tells me they're feeling suicidal, I don't know what to tell you

if you're that successful, you're probably smart

can we not

you need to meet some different musicians

I would prefer to continue knowing the musicians I know and doing my best to support them

Eeeeh what you describe seems to be very close to a certain kind of mental health stigma, Goon. One of which is to treat mental health experts as quacks when really you should see it the same way you would a surgeon for a necessary treatment. Sure some of them are not good at their job but really the solution to that is to try to find a better expert, not believe you can possibly have the knowledge and wisdom of a professional with 15+ years experience. The other is to believe that your job comes with a special amount of pressure that other people wouldn't possibly understand when really welcome to the 21st century we are all pressured to death and we are all more or less alienated, any stress situation can trigger a health problem, no matter if you are CPA or successful musicians.

I just think musicians tend to be more open than their feelings, which in turn might be a blessing.

https://pigeonsandplanes.com/interviews/2018/06/070-shake-interview-kanye-west-ye-ghost-town

Kanye finished “ghost town” the same day Ye was released.

I’m quite likely to be “smarter” than a lot of physicians and therapists I’ve gone to over the years and if I fuck up big time on the road or at home I’m also likely to face extremely life-changing sanctions, but guess what, I’m only a little bit special, not THAT goddamn special.

I could run down a massive list of things that put me in an extremely small minority of people, for better and worse (so could a lot of people on this board, i wager) but I really try to take better care of myself these days rather than go with exceptionalism as an excuse. I think we basically agree though.

Imma let you finish, but Hello, I Must Be Going!...

I'm judgmental and unforgiving. That's my fucking superpower.

I know that stoves burn you. They don't cut you. That my superpower.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless

Just what we need
To halt a severe Diplo

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless

― El Tomboto

reed richards' superpower is to do a fucking great guest spot on one mf doom song and then disappear forever

the idea that Tekashi 69 or Bobby Blotzer from Ratt or Justin Timberlake or whoever plays bass for Three Doors Down is likely smarter than my incredibly perceptive psychologist who holds a PhD is really one for the record books

He's so good he's convinced you that all other psychologists are on that level by association.

sh@kedown otm, that's o_O

I was thinking of Robin Williams, Chester Bennington, Scott Hutchinson, but ymmv

Another good rap record about mental health issues: Pharaoh Monch "PTSD"

Mind's Playing Tricks on Me

I figured if I brought up Scarface I would get "old man rap head yells at cloudrap" feedback but yeah if you wanna talk mental illness in classic rap records, 'Face is ground zero.

z-ro as well

good call

I was thinking of Robin Williams, Chester Bennington, Scott Hutchinson, but ymmv

― nevertheless, he stopped (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, June 5, 2018 8:21 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

perhaps just like every other group some successful musicians are very intelligent and others are not and success in music is tied to many factors outside of how smart a person is

also a therapist job isn't necessarily to be "smarter" than you it's to help you process your feelings and thoughts and also see through your bullshit ways of not dealing with things, one of which may be fancying yourself smarter than your therapist

otm

Starlito belongs to the conversation.

This was a single point in a longer post. I'm not suggesting "successful people are smarter than normal plebes with mental illness"-- if that was implied, then whoops, my bad. I'm not suggesting that therapists in general are dumber than their patients. Or that they need to be smarter.

I'm saying that I've had experience, both as a person whose had (I think) seven different therapists of various styles helping me with my own bullshit, and as a person whose had many friends cycle through different therapists and relate to me their experiences. And I've had experience doing emotional labour for so many fucked up people. And generally, my observation is that people who are intelligent, highly intelligent, are better at constructing more elaborate defence mechanisms to protect themselves against treatment. And that also, highly intelligent people require highly intelligent therapists to be able to assail those defence mechanisms and break the mental loops that are causing them to keep cycling through whatever patterns they've fallen into.

I have a friend who endured a crushing rejection by a man he was in love with and had had a six month relationship with. What followed was two years of obsession, construction of elaborate narratives, and the spreading around of accusations of "narcissism" and such things around our mutual friend group. This man is the smartest person I've ever met. Whenever I tried to get through to him, to help me deal with the root of his problem-- dealing with rejection and accepting it-- rather than sublimating his pain into other projections, it felt like I was playing a game of chess against a grand master, and losing badly. He had built up so many defences and rhetorical narratives that it was impossible for me to make him understand.

In the cases of people who I mentioned, and Kanye himself, all of whom I assume are/were blindingly intelligent, and in a position (famous comedian/musician) that it's hard for anybody-- friend or therapist-- to truly understand or empathize with, I am simply stating that I would imagine (probably correctly) that finding a therapist who was good enough (and smart enough) to break through whatever neural loops were terrorizing the individual would be very difficult.

Whenever I tried to get through to him, to help me deal with the root of his problem-- dealing with rejection and accepting it-- rather than sublimating his pain into other projections, it felt like I was playing a game of chess against a grand master, and losing badly.

oooof I've dealt with this a few times and it's a real thing, working for hours at a time to sort out the insight they'll accept, knowing you may not be able to reuse it again later, like you're training a virus to defeat medication.

fgti is otm imo. It's what Lacan called 'les non-dupes errent'. Those who can't be fooled are in error. From what I gather it's a rather well-known phenomenon in psychology, especially when it comes to something like addiction - smart guys see through the platitudes of the 12 steps program and refuse to hand over their destiny to 'a higher power'. There's a brilliant portrait of this type of guy in Infinite Jest, I think it's Geoffrey Day.

I also would not be surprised if the kardashian machine discouraged him from seeking treatment (no treatment = no storylines) or even had it in some contract

er treatment = no storylines, you know what I mean