The Who : Classic or Dud

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spies they're come and gone
the story travels on
the only quiet place is inside your soul

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFPC1leh4LI

reggie (qualmsley), Friday, 25 May 2018 15:44 (six years ago) link

one year passes...

How I'd rank their hits.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 12 August 2019 15:53 (five years ago) link

Great list — “Dogs” and “The Relay” never get enough love. (And while I’d rate “You Better, You Bet” slightly higher, I much prefer Townshend’s demo.)

As for By Numbers, I dunno if I can convince you to give it a concentrated listen, but my take on it is that he/they have given up. They tried to bring the audience to this state of interaction that went beyond the usual audience-performer relationship (Lifehouse), it failed, and they witnessed the devolution of concerts (particularly in the US) into celebrations of firecrackers and quaaludes. By Numbers was originally intended to be their final album, signaling defeat. In doing so, they found their feet as an ensemble in the studio for the final time, sounding as confident and focused — arguably moreso — than on Quadrophenia.

Who Are You, on the other hand, feels like a forced last gasp, overstuffed arrangements trying (and failing) to mask the deficiencies of the writing. “905” is one of Entwistle’s best songs, and I’ll rep for the title track, “Sister Disco,” and even “Love Is Coming Down.” But replace “Guitar and Pen” and one of the other Entwistle songs with “No Road Romance” and “Empty Glass” (both recorded in ‘78 by Pete, Keith, and John, but rejected by the band for inclusion on the album), and it’d be a much-improved near-classic.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 13 August 2019 21:57 (five years ago) link

Good post

TS: “8:05” vs. “905” (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 13 August 2019 22:51 (five years ago) link

I kinda think the Who might have been served by doing some other projects in-between the big rock operas. Never quite understood why Daltrey was not interested in singing some of Entwistle's tunes, which I understand was the case. Tommy kind of overtook everything and then it was trying to one up that record, which was really kinda impossible. Maybe with a more modern sensibility about putting out records, they might have done a bit more low key and just different.

They definitely left a decent LP of tunes behind between Tommy and Who's Next, even beyond some of the other Lifehouse tracks.

Then again, I think the money got so big and it got going so fast, it was probably just hanging on to keep going on.

earlnash, Tuesday, 13 August 2019 23:13 (five years ago) link


As for By Numbers, I dunno if I can convince you to give it a concentrated listen, but my take on it is that he/they have given up. They tried to bring the audience to this state of interaction that went beyond the usual audience-performer relationship (Lifehouse), it failed, and they witnessed the devolution of concerts (particularly in the US) into celebrations of firecrackers and quaaludes. By Numbers was originally intended to be their final album, signaling defeat. In doing so, they found their feet as an ensemble in the studio for the final time, sounding as confident and focused — arguably moreso — than on Quadropheni

You're not the first person in the last few days on social media to urge me to listen to By Numbers. I'm surprised -- I loathe "Squeeze Box."

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 13 August 2019 23:26 (five years ago) link

"Squeeze Box" is an outlier.

frustration and wonky passion (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 13 August 2019 23:30 (five years ago) link

I bet I haven't listened to By Numbers in 25 years and I still think of "How Ever Much I Booze", "Success Story", and "How Many Friends" as some of my favorite 70s 'Oo tunes

What a great and utterly fucked up band

chr1sb3singer, Wednesday, 14 August 2019 16:14 (five years ago) link

Or that wonderful Townsend ukulele gem on Numbers, The Blue, the Red and the Grey

Dr X O'Skeleton, Wednesday, 14 August 2019 19:00 (five years ago) link

i've always kinda looked over by numbers, but slip kid is great and i got new appreciation for imagine a man when i saw em play it in concert a few months back.

jakey mo collier (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 14 August 2019 22:26 (five years ago) link

slip kid is also very obviously what prince was thinking about when he first played the riff for 'let's go crazy'

jakey mo collier (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 14 August 2019 22:28 (five years ago) link

Relay and Dogs are fantastic. But while there are obviously more gems to be found in the Who's first six albums as opposed to those that came after, there's still the odd masterpiece - I especially adore Eminence Front (which didn't make Alfred's list).

Valentijn, Thursday, 15 August 2019 06:57 (five years ago) link

this revive made me think of how all these huge boomer rock acts - the Who, the Kinks, Pink Floyd - were all on the same page in terms of thinking of what is essentially musical theater as being the future of rock. What a weird idea to take hold, kind of backward-looking rather than forward-looking ie let's incorporate rock into this existing format (which imo is actually kind of lame), and also an idea that turned out to be very wrong.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 August 2019 17:03 (five years ago) link

Well, I think when it starts with, say, "A Quick One (While He's Away)," it's very much in the vein of just general interest in an expanded songwriting artistry. When it evolves into Tommy, I think of it more in terms of just the realization of "Hey, maybe I can do this." I'm not sure the impulse itself to do a full, theatrical-length project as being backward - there are plenty of times throughout history where someone's taken an old idea and done something modern with it.

timellison, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:16 (five years ago) link

Though I agree that with something like the Kinks' Soap Opera, it feels like a stale reliance on a very old formula.

timellison, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:18 (five years ago) link

sure, and "doing something modern" with an old idea (in this case, a story told in song, onstage, with characters) sure looks like what these guys were trying to do. But at the same time it seems to me that musical theater in general was *not* something that held much appeal to rock audiences. Like, most of these projects were not successful for one reason or another ("The Wall" and "Tommy" being the obvious big exceptions). In my head I wanted to link this resistance to what it turns out audiences actually wanted - which in the modern age has morphed into popular musicians as cult-of-personality avatars, audiences like to think they're following the real life of Taylor Swift (or whoever) and that her career is essentially about granting us voyeuristic insights into her shenanigans.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:22 (five years ago) link

like, it turns out we didn't want rock stars to tell us a story, we wanted them to LIVE the story

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:22 (five years ago) link

or to put it another way: the story/legend of the weirdos in the Who is more interesting/engaging than the story of Tommy.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:23 (five years ago) link

For me, the story of Tommy is not so much the point. The point is the artistry. Nevertheless, the appeal of it at its best, things like "1921" and "Go to the Mirror!" and "Sally Simpson," totally relate (for me, anyway) to these songs' relationship to the narrative! I don't care so much about the appeal of the narrative in total - these songs move me anyway.

timellison, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:28 (five years ago) link

well, I'm not discussing their relative quality as works, more of how these acts were charting a course that pop/rock didn't really follow

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:29 (five years ago) link

and they *really* tried to make it happen - especially Townsend and Davies, who wrote, what three or four of these kinds of things apiece (at least)?

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:30 (five years ago) link

Boy, The Who By Numbers is tough going for me. I think if I were to sit and listen to the whole thing, I'd find quite a few things that are really well done musically, but I mostly leave it at resignation to the perception that the guy who wrote all that wonderful music on The Who Sell Out had taken an aesthetic path that is less appealing to me.

timellison, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:32 (five years ago) link

Well, I think when it starts with, say, "A Quick One (While He's Away)," it's very much in the vein of just general interest in an expanded songwriting artistry.

Before that, "I'm a Boy"...

The song was originally intended to be a part of a rock opera called 'Quads' which was to be set in the future where parents can choose the sex of their children. The idea was later scrapped, but this song survived and was later released as a single

Kit Lambert was the son of a classical composer after all.

Euripedes' Trousers (Tom D.), Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:36 (five years ago) link

Criss-crossing with Tommy and such was Hair and Jesus Christ Superstar, which at the time was seen as theatre bending towards rock, and was even more popular. Probably a good bit of audience overlap. I think I even recall Evita being called a rock musical.

bendy, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:58 (five years ago) link

it is true that the Who, Floyd and the Kinks seemed to go all in with rock-as-musical-theater in the 70s, and I think it was a shitty development (I strongly dislike Tommy and the Wall, only like Quadrophenia and have never listened to any of Davies' works as such in one sitting, only know individual tunes…and I guess Berlin fits in with this concept as well)…but apart from the fact that I am only now getting over my strong distaste for musical theater, it would seem to me that the problem is that one cannot simply listen to any of these records or others similarly inclined, pay attention to it like you would a book, a show or movie, not do anything else, and follow a story…none of these records individually have all the info you need to know what's going on… you need other ancillary/ adjacent/supplementary sources for that… I'm sure Townshend, Davies and Waters thought, "well this would be stupid to include all these plot points in the songs…" well fellas, maybe this whole idea is not so hot! You guys were supposed to oppose Broadway shit, not emulate it!

veronica moser, Thursday, 15 August 2019 20:59 (five years ago) link

one cannot simply listen to any of these records or others similarly inclined, pay attention to it like you would a book, a show or movie, not do anything else, and follow a story

I think you just had to be REALLY high

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 August 2019 21:01 (five years ago) link

I think Townshend, under the influence of Kit Lambert, was definitely thinking in terms of Opera not Musical Theatre as such.

Euripedes' Trousers (Tom D.), Thursday, 15 August 2019 21:12 (five years ago) link

Am I the only one who likes Endless Wire?

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 15 August 2019 21:14 (five years ago) link

I like it. I seem to recall it getting some measure of appreciation here when it was released.

the public eating of beans (Sparkle Motion), Thursday, 15 August 2019 21:20 (five years ago) link

I like it a lot.

timellison, Thursday, 15 August 2019 21:34 (five years ago) link

Endless Wire is good-to-great. Easily better than the two ‘80s Who records (granted, not exactly a high bar).

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 15 August 2019 21:56 (five years ago) link

I think Townshend, under the influence of Kit Lambert, was definitely thinking in terms of Opera not Musical Theatre as such.


Tom D. otm. None of Townshend’s longer/narrative work (Psychoderelict excepted) had any relationship to Broadway musicals — musical theatre has spoken dialogue, for one thing. And musicals have overenunciated singing and generally hacky playing that even the worst of the Kinks’ theatrical records fortunately lacked.

I suspect there was very little overlap between the Who’s audience in 1969-70 and the audience for Hair — I remember Dave Marsh calling Hair “what the squares thought the sixties were about.” It was only after Broadway hacks had internalized the impact of Tommy, decades later, that it was staged as the musical it previously stood in opposition to. Up until that point, the only performances of Tommy (give or take a Royal Canadian Ballet here, or a 1979 West End production there) were those the Who had done. The success of Tommy in 1969-70 was due, to a significant degree, to how it was performed, and these were by far the least theatrical performances of anything similarly approached by the Kinks or Pink Floyd or Genesis or whoever.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 15 August 2019 22:17 (five years ago) link

Hair is bad or doesn’t make sense only if you think it it as a strictly “rock” musical. If you think of it more as, say, a funk musical, then you can begin to recognize its greatness, as did all the Galt MacDermot samplers.

TS: “8:05” vs. “905” (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 15 August 2019 22:40 (five years ago) link

I dunno, I can only think of two or three songs on the cast recording that have a toe dipped in “funk” (the title track, “Walking In Space,” “Colored Spade,” “The Flesh Failures/Let The Sunshine In”). And for me, those don’t approach the level of ‘68 Motown, Stax, Sly, the Impressions, or James Brown (among others).

The issue for me is less the rhythm section (which is great when the arrangements let them be great) and more the frantic and clumsy/cluttered orchestrations. Then there’s the horrible vocals and decidedly on-the-nose (to put it mildly) lyrics. A handful of decent instrumental moments in an otherwise execrable musical isn’t enough to redeem it.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 16 August 2019 01:00 (five years ago) link

revisiting endless wire - this album really is about ‘Mike Post Theme’ isn’t it

the public eating of beans (Sparkle Motion), Friday, 16 August 2019 01:20 (five years ago) link

Delightful song

timellison, Friday, 16 August 2019 01:53 (five years ago) link

xps there's definitely something with many of these bands (most notably the Who and the Kinks but also the Beatles, Floyd etc.) harking back to pre-pop/rock traditions (music hall, vaudeville etc.) that were mainstays of British culture, and would have been part of most of these musicians' youths. Sergeant Pepper's is steeped in nostalgia for what was already becoming a lost world. I think of those big acts it was only the Stones who didn't do something in that line? Also worth noting that in Hollywood and for film audiences musicals were very popular right up until the end of the 60s. So this wasn't happening in a vacuum. But it's interesting that it now appears a cultural dead-end.

Captain ACAB (Neil S), Friday, 16 August 2019 08:28 (five years ago) link

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3r4byx
It's all here: The classical pastiche with a music hall delivery, a dirty joke that has become an epic. It's complex, thrilling and so much fun - everything the 60s were supposed to be, before people overreached and took themselves way too seriously.

Dr X O'Skeleton, Friday, 16 August 2019 11:29 (five years ago) link

it's a very long time since i listened to it on record (lol like 50 years or something) but iirc the LP version of e.g. my fair lady (1964) doesn't include much of the talking stuff, it's mostly just the songs --renedering it impossible to follow the story (and if not true of MFL this was p standard for musicals on record)

also every song on the my fair lady is better than any song on tommy or quadrophenia obviously and even sexy rexy in mfl >>> sexy rodge as a singer after c.1970

constant lambert didn't actually write any operas and was not -- if memory serves -- particularly enamoured of that kind of composed music (tho kit may have been, i don't think they saw eye-to-eye on the direction music should be taking)

mark s, Friday, 16 August 2019 11:42 (five years ago) link

I think of those big acts it was only the Stones who didn't do something in that line?


There was this:

https://youtu.be/9yxJiuWJmE4

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:09 (five years ago) link

hah yes! probably best the Stones didn't continue down that particular path!

Captain ACAB (Neil S), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:12 (five years ago) link

and another one from Between the Buttons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLAeFyltAdU

by the light of the burning Citroën, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:33 (five years ago) link

good god that is a hideous still

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:34 (five years ago) link

Like, most of these projects were not successful for one reason or another ("The Wall" and "Tommy" being the obvious big exceptions). In my head I wanted to link this resistance to what it turns out audiences actually wanted - which in the modern age has morphed into popular musicians as cult-of-personality

This is a really good thesis. The Sex Pistols ]were an opera, playing out in three acts and ending in murder/suicide and all that. Nirvana, Tupac and Biggie, etc.

bendy, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:06 (five years ago) link

ties into audiences valuing perceived authenticity too. they didn't want to witness a performance, they wanted it to *really happen* because they had fully subscribed to notions that privileged authenticity over artifice.

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:18 (five years ago) link

three months pass...

Cincinnati tragedy 40 years ago today.

a bevy of supermodels, musicians and Lena Dunham (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 3 December 2019 18:51 (four years ago) link

new album out Friday also, which somehow hasn't leaked yet, even though some retailers got copies two weeks early. The three songs released frankly are the best things they've done in quite some time (certainly the best since Emminence Front) and word is that as an album it's the best since Quadrophenia. We'll see.

akm, Tuesday, 3 December 2019 19:15 (four years ago) link

A Cincinnati TV station is airing an hour-long documentary about the tragedy tonight. Townshend, Daltrey, and manager Bill Curbishley are interviewed, and I believe this will be the first in-depth interview Townshend has done about Cincinnati since 1980 (when he said some profoundly insensitive things in an RS interview with Greil Marcus).

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/how-to-watch-wcpos-documentary-the-who-the-night-that-changed-rock

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 3 December 2019 19:21 (four years ago) link

and word is that as an album it's the best since Quadrophenia. We'll see.


That’s what Daltrey is saying! I can sorta see why, since none of the post-Quadrophenia records were particularly pleasant experiences for him.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, 3 December 2019 19:24 (four years ago) link


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