Bang Bang You're Dead... POLL In Your Head - ILM Artist Poll #87 - SMASHING PUMPKINS - Results

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re: Soundslike - i think it’s the difference between experiencing a band in real time & discovering the body of work after it’s been completed

― flappy bird, Sunday, April 8, 2018 3:29 AM (four minutes ago)
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That's what's odd about it to me, though. Experiencing it in real time, having a lot of my nascent juvenile identity tied up in the band, I had a lot "riding on" their continuing to be the greatest thing in the world, and thus a lot of reason to rationalize and overlook their mounting failings: becoming harsh vocally, overproduced, static, fractured, trying to reverse-engineer what might keep their alternative-rock star ascendant, becoming over-long, etc. etc. And believe me, I tried, and it took discovering a lot of other music and SP becoming really a shadow of themselves to finally give up and let go.

Whereas, I would think someone coming in with no "real-time" youthful investment in the band, and certainly little to know cultural (or at least fan-cultural) cachet involved (i.e. being a Pumpkins fan in '95 made you part of a community, such as it was--hardly the case 5, 10, 15, now 20 years later) would be more discriminating in their assessment of the band. No one *needs* hundreds of Smashing Pumpkins songs (not to mentioned all the demos, live bootlegs, sketches, etc. we all sought out like potential gems) if you're coming at them as classic rock or as a waning standard-bearer of the marketing ploy of "alternative rock". We only thought we did because we were wrapped up in it as it was happening, and feeling that ones investments in what's-happening-right-now are "important" really matters to self-identity for young people.

So why someone coming to it as a body of work would see it relativistically rather than judicially is confusing to me. They're a band with a great album, a good album, and another disc or so of great odds-and-sods--a tiny corner of a Micro SD card or, more likely, a fairly short playlist on somebody's streaming service of choice, these days. Judged on the basis of their best work, I could see them continuing to find new fans, albeit fewer and fewer as "rock music" fades in significance. But I would think presented as a monolith of a hundred hours of sound, all apparently equally good--they'd sink from public perception like a stone, or a fossil.

I formed attachment to the music, but only to the music that stood the test of time and decontextualized listening.

― Soundslike, Sunday, 8 April 2018 3:55 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Maybe for some people that's Machina...

I mean, it's not for me, but this whole double-act with Turrican of performatively shaking your head at everyone who disagrees with what you know that everyone knows to be true isn't really getting us anywhere.

Also I'm gonna come back and right about a whole bunch of these placements, the last few stretches of the roll-out have been incredibly pleasing to me.

It's not as though the Adore and Machina fans here are leveling the entire catalogue. You don't seem them defending mk 2 albums with the same fervour. You can be a judicious listener and also happen to not think there was a drop-off after Pisces.

Ah, Porcelina, the epic song of drunken wretching. Ten shots in, you find yourself in the slipstream of thoughtless thoughts, without a care in this whole world, bent over the the porcelain bowl staring into its vast oceans, blacking out to the seashell hissing lullabies of the last flush.

Porcelina rules

https://i.imgur.com/komUP3z.jpg
14. Today
502 points, 18 votes
From: Siamese Dream, 1993

I mean, I love Adore but think "Stand Inside Your Love" is the only listenable thing on MACHINA.

Haven't listened to SIYL since 2003 when I first discovered the band (and loved them) and woah woah woah what a great track.

🍦🍦🍦

"Today" is a great song I never need to hear again.

their first great pop moment

i got into sd comparatively way late (bought mellon collie when i was 8, adore when i was 11, but my parents got me sd for my birthday when i was 13 along with gish and radiohead’s amnesiac) and i remember v vividly how i felt when i first heard “today.” the crush of the guitars is so perfect

Maybe for some people that's Machina...

I mean, it's not for me, but this whole double-act with Turrican of performatively shaking your head at everyone who disagrees with what you know that everyone knows to be true isn't really getting us anywhere.

― Tim F, Sunday, April 8, 2018 4:00 AM (two minutes ago)

t's not as though the Adore and Machina fans here are leveling the entire catalogue. You don't seem them defending mk 2 albums with the same fervour. You can be a judicious listener and also happen to not think there was a drop-off after Pisces.

― jmm, Sunday, April 8, 2018 4:02 AM (twenty-four seconds ago)

Fair enough. Would be interesting if this poll had also been done 17 years ago, after they first broke up--would be curious how it would've differed.

I guess in part the broader positive appraisal of the later work is just something I was unaware of all these years. The other band I super-fanned in real time back then, Radiohead--that's a band I understand has supporters all the way through, and debate about the merits of every album. Smashing Pumpkins I thought of as more of a closed book--not a bad thing to find out otherwise, just surprising.

"Today" is a great song I never need to hear again.

Usually my feeling with the entire Smashing Pumpkins catalogue.

But now with that poll I ain't so sure.

"Today" at #14 is the first track to rank that I had *lower* on my ballot, at #19. It's great, but probably the one track from SD that suffers for me from oversaturation.

I thought of SP as a closed book post-Machina. For me the strength of Machina was that it felt like you knew and they knew that they were sputtering out but they put everything they had left (some of which was just a kind of coasting on solid songwriting) into making sure it belonged in their catalogue. Like when a skipping stone's last jump goes longer than you expected.

was Zwan included in the balloting?

Zwan wasn't eligible though I kinda regret not allowing them because Mary Star of the Sea rules

Having spent years and years disliking MACHINA I'm actually in support of Corgan's crazy plan to "finish" the project when it finally gets reissued. It'd include remixing the whole thing, rerecording parts (including having guest vocalists perform songs as characters within the narrative arc), and expanding it to a proper double LP. There are good songs on there, just a lot of bad decisions, overproduction, and terrible mastering.

I thought of SP as a closed book post-Machina. For me the strength of Machina was that it felt like you knew and they knew that they were sputtering out but they put everything they had left (some of which was just a kind of coasting on solid songwriting) into making sure it belonged in their catalogue. Like when a skipping stone's last jump goes longer than you expected.

― Fetchboy, Sunday, April 8, 2018 4:15 AM (thirty-one seconds ago)

I remember at the time hearing 'Machina II' being described with that kind of feeling, "one last hurrah for old time's sake". I've tried listening a few times since then and it's more charming with flashes of 'Zero EP' stripped-down-rock-ness, which I totally get as an antidote to the polish and flatness of 'Machina'. But it's hard to relate to the assessment re: 'Machina', though that's what I wanted it to be at the time, because it feels like both SP-by-numbers and a slightly desperate bid for relevance in what was quickly becoming an irrelevant format--it didn't and doesn't sound to me like an album with much emotional investment (which I can grant 'Adore,' though I don't care for the results) nor like a record where anyone was having any fun.

https://i.imgur.com/qnjAOn2.jpg
13. Galapogos
518 points, 18 votes
From: Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, 1995

https://i.imgur.com/Zkl343p.jpg
13. Rocket
518 points, 19 votes, 2 #1 votes
From: Siamese Dream, 1993

Voted for the last three

"Galapogos" meant everything to me when I was 14-15 and it still sounds great. No small feat.

I didn't really know Galapogos was such a favourite but it's one of mine so it's great to see it so high. The little lick after the second chorus is so great and the way the bridge comes in. Such a pretty song

Rocket could have been another #1. One of their most infectious songs and has the most perfect climax and finish.

"Galapogos" meant everything to me when I was 14-15 and it still sounds great. No small feat.

― Simon H., Sunday, April 8, 2018 4:35 AM (one minute ago)

I'd say basically exactly the same thing about "Rocket" : )

Feels like "Rocket" was the forgotten single at the time, but it's probably my favorite of them.

I remember the exact moment this obsession started: putting on mellon collie then shoveling snow for what felt like an hour & coming in just as the guitars burst in Galapagos is the moment I sank into this sick wormhole of fandom.

I'll put 'MCIS/Adore/Machina' relative to the early work higher than 'Episode I/Episode II/Episode III' relative to the originals, and that's all I can give them, re: pop-culture things that disabused me of my childhood/teenagehood as a necessary growing pain ; )

https://i.imgur.com/CYEBnYz.jpg
11. Set the Ray to Jerry
520 points, 18 votes
From: 1979 EP and The Aeroplane Flies High, 1996

last one for now, sorry for this section running a bit late

holy shit what a great stretch

nothing sounds quite like “jerry” imo

voted for this one too, one of my very favorites

one of the best Aeroplane tracks and should have been on the album (the whole band loved it but Flood didn't so Billy was convinced to leave it off) but I never understood why it was such a fan favourite.

as far as similar sounds go I feel like Bloc Party must have been huge fans of it, there's a few tracks like Tulips that have a pretty similar feeling.

i hope tomorrow's roll out doesn't start as early, for selfish reasons i'm hoping for a mid-day time slot.

replacing In the Arms of Sleep with Set the Ray Jerry is the only MCIS track/sequence swap I can get behind.

Somewhere in "Set the Ray to Jerry" and "Cherry" and the 'Zero EP' b-sides, you can feel an alternate history of Smashing Pumpkins where they decided to go slinky and direct and (relatively) low-key, rather than deciding to do a kitchen-sink 'White Album' was the next Preordained Step in the Stairway to Rock Canon Heaven. It could've been great. But at least we have the cast-off possibilities.

I only rated "Jerry" (at #8), "Cherry" (at #20) and "Mouths of Babes" (at #22) from the MCIS era, and I suspect they all pre-date the MCIS era, really.

Set the Ray to Jerry I think was written during the Gish tour?

1992 demo of Set the Ray rules, if you've ever wanted a heavy version of Set the Ray in your life (yes obv)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbvT-kUL8Po

xp yes

It's funny--it's late and my wife is sleeping and I don't have headphones at hand, so I can't listen to that--but I feel like I can absolutely SD-ify "Jerry" in my head as a heavy track, and it could've been great. But I think it's actually remarkable that instead they went all restraint and tension and implied-rock through misty almost-jazzy feints and hints. It's something they didn't really do much, or at least not without building it up beyond restraint at some point in a song. It makes me want to listen to the few MCIS tracks that I generally like (production/approach aside), and "Jerry-fy" them in my head to imagine that alternate history more vividly. . .

Like the Knife doing a record updating old tracks to their last sound. . . Maybe we can convince Billy that path back to relevance is to tackle MCIS/Adore-era tracks and set their rays to Jerry.

Porcelina rules

Galapagos rules

Rocket was my #1

I shall be free

I love quiet Pumpkins but Jerry does nothing for me, I wonder why.

(also I thought Porcelina was a lock for #1 so what do I know)

may blather more in the morning but mainly I'm stoked to see Galapagos this high. feels like a song every listener must have had their own individual discovery moment with, holy shit this bridge! amazing that this record has room for this and for "porcelina" - a clear argument for why it has to be a double - and then they put them almost back to back. gutsy.

You're not alone re:Jerry, Matthew.

"Obscured" was my #2!

I am having to relisten to "Galapogos" right now to remember how it goes. I think I always skipped this one! It is really pretty, though. Apparently my individual discovery moment is right now.

top 10 prediction:

1. 1979
2. Mayonaise
3. Soma
4. Drown
5. Rhinoceros
6. Cherub Rock
7. Hummer
8. Thirty-Three
9. Thru the Eyes of Ruby
10. Starla

No offense to Rhinoceros, but I have a hard time seeing it place and Daydream not.