Bikini Kill - C or D?

no, that's Jess' good point, which is why I'm in the ''jokey'' sunday afternoon, there's-nothing-here mood.

I don't care if you think it was funny or not maan!

I rather think that's the point.

Speaking from my silly ol' heart, both Kate and Di rock, and rock well. Different sources, different experiences etc. helped give them the desire to get on stage and actually do something, and as they said above, this is a case -- like so many other musical or artistic or social movements (and punk is as good an example as any in the larger scope) -- that what for one is cosseting and limiting is for another angle thrilling and liberating. All depends on where yer at, who you are, hell even when you were born.

I do think it's interesting that we're having the same kind of heated discussions over Riot Grrrl now that we did in 1991. You very rarely hear people discussing whether Nirvana sold out or why Ian MacKaye disapproves of drinking alcohol...but bring up Bikini Kill or Riot Grrrl, and it's like that cut still hasn't scabbed over after 12 years.

I have seen discussion of that actually.

Jess only if they have lots of cute boys with shaggy haircuts, tee hee!!

Oh, GOD, no! If you're referring to Bobby G and Primal Scream, I canNOT BEAR to listen to that man going on about politics. But his political oversimplifications only prove his stupidity, and I find dumb men REALLY attractive in a himbo sort of way...

If they themselves have rejected and abandonned the label, is it really fair to continue to pidgeonhole them? I no longer thing of S/K as anything even approaching a riot grrl band.

(although bands like the c**lies - and i'm sure there are bands like that everywhere, certainly don't help to nip that myth in the bud).

Too many riot grrl bands still take this approach. We played with an Oxford riot grrl band who actually announced before their set "we didn't bother tuning. But it's OK cause we didn't bother rehearsing either." Someone in the audience yelled "Yeah, and it shows!" And it did indeed show, which I found incredibly frustrating, considering the amount of effort my band had put into rehearsing and preparing for the show. Yet WE get judged by the low criteria girls like THEM establish.

Julio: Jeez...it was only a joke (you riot gurls take things far too seriously).

Remember, Riot Grrls are still participating in the Great Feminist Humour Boycott of 1973. Womyn will boycott humour until equality is achieved!

Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: That's not funny!

Q: How many riot grrls does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None, cause riot grrls'll never change anything.

Sorry, I'm really enthusiastic. Rehearsal ROXORED today. I don't know when we turned into the sort of band that broke into impromptu covers of Back In Black halfway through middle 8s, but I *like* it. Take that, "Girls can't play guitar" Riot Grrl bee-yatchs!

Oops I forgot, must be more ploitically correct (and be more telepathic!).

probably not fair. however they may not make punk rock anymore but the RG concerns (all hands) and influence are still there. haha postriotgrrrlism!

I think that the latter part of this sentence is still pretty much the case in most societal outposts.

Also it's quite troubling to me that a lot of the outward signifiers of riot grrrl -- NB i was really into riot grrrl music in late high school/early college but very removed from the actual organization, in (probably larger than I want to admit) part because of old adolescent female wounds that made me fairly wary of dealing with large groups of women -- got turned inside-out and transformed into badges for younger women who would rather be fat than feminist. But perhaps that's fodder for a different discussion? Or is that the end result of what Kate cites as 'simplistic' political imagery?

And in case you were wondering: 'Carnival,' 'Feels Blind,' 'New Radio,' and pretty much all of PUSSY WHIPPED are classic, 'Reject All American' pretty dud.

There you go proving my point again. As Kool as Cool Thing was, the song PREDATES riot grrl by about five years.

john it was five past midnight!! i am old but not that old

thing is that comment was my feeble attempt that was designed to provoke. and it worked!

''riot grrl is eternal''

OK then so what was the top ten riot grrl alb of the year (and will you vote for it on the wire end of year poll as 'avant' rock).

Yup -- Chels is a good friend of mine, and her thesis rocks. It's called Because and is going to be revised for publication by Routledge, so just keep yer eyes and ears open. :-)

ah, amm and bikini kill (separated by a few years but anyway)...that's what i call 'good' music policy.

Feminist and Riot Grrl are NOT synonymous, though people treat them as if they are. I am a feminist. I am NOT a riot grrl. All dachsunds are dogs, but NOT ALL dogs are dachsunds. Remember basic logic, please.

I'd say nearly everything: Hit It or Quit It early issues (Sonic Youth interviewed in #3); all those great singles by BK, Bratmobile, Tiger Trap, Heavens to Betsy, Huggy Bear; the hilaroius mainstream press coverage; the old arguments that still piss people off; the Zeitgeist contributions of Slant 6, comic book artist Julie Doucet, Lisa Carver, Beat Happening, live concerts by Babes in Toyland, Susie Bright, and, yes, Kim Kim Kim.

Today HIOQI is still going, Bratmobile is still damn exciting live, Hanna is making the best records of her career, Sleater Kinney is Sleater Kinney. We have Bust and Bitch and Punk Planet, and still have Bright and Carver. Ladyfests are popping up across the country. I went to the one in Chicago last year, shortly before 9/11, and came away believing in idealist urges again. The brand name may be history, but Riot Grrrl as a movement/moment is no more or less dead than punk rock...

You're fucking kidding me... I came away from a Ladyfest fest tour wanting to listen to nothing but Eminem and AC/DC. A furious feminist (female) friend went to Ladyfest Chicago and was frankly disgusted.

Who is doing what wrong or right?

The Spice Girls did more (good or bad) for feminism than all of riot grrl put together: DISCUSS.

Same here. In that sense I think KH is the Eminem of riot grrl.

Actually KH reminds of Eminem in many different ways but that would take up more time to explain than I have right now.

And I loved Heavens to Betsy so please don't pull the old "ooh you horrible post-feminist riot grrl hata!" line on me.

I wish Riot Grrl, or anything that approximates it, would have jumped onto sounds like the early days of The Need or Mocket. But nope. (See God Is My Co-Pilot thread)

i DO think riot grrl was a positive, but at this point i'm not particularly interested in debating it. living in olympia has certainly skewed my take on riot grrl and "indie politics" in general, i won't deny that. in two weeks (i think), nancy will be dragging me to homo-a-gogo where they are promising a broad range of art and music representing queer views. but i bet i get a. a lot of video art b. screechy hardcore/fumbling indie/possibly something with a drum machine. and you know what: while i will and should find this incredibly tedious, for the masses of 18-22 girls and boys who attend, for whom this may well be their first exposure to a wider perspective on feminism or queer politics, it may well be "life changing." i find approaching things like riot grrl from the jaded and cynical perspective of an older mind.