Wilco: A Ghost Is Born poll

wishful thinking! theologians came close.

this is my least favorite Wilco album (haven't yet heard A.M.). i think it's all because of the song "Less Than You Think," it's a horrible idea and it goes on for over 15 minutes. the song might work if it wasn't Wilco but to put that on an album just brings it down a couple of pegs.

Theologians

i will defend to the death an artist's right to commit stuff like "less than you think" to tape, even/especially within an album context

also it is a fantastic piece of music and conveys illness better than anything else i have ever heard

fair enough, but at one time songs like that would become B-sides and not put on albums...

i'm happy to concede an artist's right to commit a song like "less than you think" to tape, but it remains an awful, indulgent and dull piece.

i mean wilco are one of my very favourite bands, but surely there's barely anyone out there who can make it through that track without a good deal of toil and impatience. for mine, it's a bit of a blight on the album and a stroke of poor judgment - i wonder how it made it so far off the drawing board.

"Muzzle of Bees". I've read that Tweedy struggles with migraines, and I hear the song as illustrating the gradual return of one after the pain medication's worn off, until it's fully raging.

I think it's gotta be the first song, one of Tweedy's prettiest melodies. I love the imagery in the second verse of the girl tending to the singer's black eye she herself gave to him. And the instrumental breakdown is great, Tweedy actually sounds raw and emotional soloing. (I'm pretty sure it's him on lead.)

I gotta admit I don't really fuck with this band too much anymore but what I've heard from the new one sounds great, will definitely get it.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Don't really know how anyone could choose anything other than At Least That's What You Said

less than you think is pretty great too. the wire review at the time said it was challenging *in the context of the album* which makes sense to me and I totally buy into LJs position on it

at least that's what you said.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

missed this poll. would have gone for either At Least That's What You Said for awesome guitar action or Wishful Thinking

yay ILM in OTM shocka

And I didn't vote coz of some mod glitch so it's really 11

nice to see the two most pointless tracks getting 0 votes

the chances are probably pretty low that they'll ever make another record as good as this

true, although One Sunday Morning is still their best song by suuuuch a long way (imo of course)

Wilco's best song is Hey Jealousy

Top result is right

i wouldn't have voted for it. probably "at least that's what you said"

not that it's bad.

feel like "i'm a wheel" would've come in last for me

"I'm a wheel" comes last in nearly every poll I can imagine.

it's just slight compared to everything else. like "i might" on the last record

There's a great, early, slow Neil Young-ish version of Late Greats performed live but I can't find it...

"less than you think" is such an amazing piece

wishful thinking is so good

less than you think is also amazing. the long outro of gentle noise is good, especially when capped off with the light, philosophical "the late greats".

this is the best wilco album

i think that goes to Sky Blue Sky but i know that is not a very popular opinion.

having a really great time listening to "less than you think" tonight

this album suffered a fair bit from its studio construction, someone in one of the other wilco threads recently said it's too sterile and i totally agree. i only want to really come back to "at least that's what you said" and "spiders (kidsmoke)" from the studio tracks, but pretty much all the live tracks from kicking television are really compelling. a lot of the album is fairly mellow with tracks just having some cool atmospheric guitar part be the most interesting thing going on, while live there's more energy & real dynamics added & cline's playing especially elevates things.

also the sequencing is just generally odd idk, really weird flow to it

I had bootlegs from their YHF tour where they did some cuts - "Spiders" was definitely one I remember - and when the album finally came out, I was kinda stunned how it went much further in a Krautrock direction. I can see how one would call it sterile, but I didn't partly because I just started listening to Kraftwerk around the same time, and I was still making the effort to "get" their music. Two close friends with similar musical tastes were huge Kraftwerk fans, and I think for that reason I didn't doubt I was missing something - so when this album came out, I approached it with a similar mindset, just something that was new to me but probably familiar and more appreciated by other people who understood the music better.

Anyway, it did grow on me, but as mentioned in another thread, I tweaked it. IIRC, there was a free downloadable bonus EP that had a few live tracks plus the studio versions of "Panthers" and "Kicking Television." I added those two studio cuts to the album. Plus I never got the appeal of having the noise at the end of "Less Than You Think" go on for 12 minutes, so I applied a slow fade early on. Result was:

1. "At Least That's What You Said" – 5:29
2. "Panthers" – 3:49
3. "Hell Is Chrome" – 4:33
4. "Spiders (Kidsmoke)" – 10:41
5. "Muzzle of Bees" – 4:51
6. "Hummingbird" – 3:06
7. "Handshake Drugs" – 6:02
8. "Wishful Thinking" – 4:37
9. "Company in My Back" – 3:42
10. "I'm a Wheel" – 2:33
11. "Theologians" – 3:31
12. "Less Than You Think" – 3:10
13. "Kicking Television" – 2:49
14. "The Late Greats" – 2:30

Total run time comes down to 62:14

To be fair, I'd dig it if "Less Than You Think" was the B-side of, say, a 12" single. On its own I can lock into all 12 minutes of it, but not when it's shoved into an hour-plus album.

the krautrock influence isn't really what i mean by sterile or anything - the studio version of "spiders" is one where it's not much of an issue. just most of the performances on the album are fairly lifeless, lacking in energy etc.

I think they'd have gotten a lot less criticism for "Less Than You Think" if they hadn't included "The Late Greats" in the track list. Keep the song where it is, but let it be a hidden bonus track.

I go in knowing it's a 12 song album. Five minutes into track 11, it dawns on me that they're just going to drone for another 10 minutes, and it feels like the band is deliberately wasting your time . Especially when "The Late Greats" is nothing particularly special and now I'm pissed. (It's like when Prince released Lovesexy as one long track--I was viscerally angry at that CD for weeks.)

If I didn't know another track was coming, the album would have a proper-if-lengthy ending, and "The Late Greats" would be a little surprise.

If "The Late Greats" was a more substantial song that began like "I Am Trying to Break Your Heart" by slowly assembling itself out of the drone haze, and ended suddenly and apocalyptically like "Poor Places" (#onethread), I might have begrudgingly given them credit for ballsiness.

“the late greats” is awesome wtf. i don’t think “adding more songs and keeping the album at an hour-plus” is the interesting way to play god here but whatever

the studio versions of these songs suit the material. while i love what cline brings to it live, tweedy’s spikey, ruminative, neil young-ish playing really puts you in the anxious and restless feeling that pervades the record

i think my favorite region of this record is “handshake drugs” -> “wishful thinking” -> “company in my back,” like the world shuddering to a halt when you’re coming off speed

The roominess and scope of this album is its key selling point; you don't listen so much as wander around in it. Less Than You Think into The Late Greats is a fabulous ending gambit. Handshake Drugs is the best song though imo

+1 for "Late Greats", one of my fav songs on this record. "Theologians" is my #1.

As a Bennett stan I might have been bringing my own baggage to this album but "Less Than You Think" and the studio version of "Spiders" both seemed like very clumsy & deliberate moves to me at the time, playing to critics who were showering them w/praise for transforming into a challenging art rock band. Its easy to forget at the time how ott some the praise for YHF's weirdness was. And it obv is a weird arty record, but I think the fact that it was Wilco doing it (who still coded to many critics as alt-country), some people were wrote about YHF like it was Amon Duul II or something. "Less" felt like Tweedy noticing how much attention the noise parts of YHF got and trying to do it again, but with less of an idea.

fwiw my cat has serious issues with "Less Than You Think."

This whole album is great, the pre-nels space filled in with piano. The singing on some tracks (Theologians) is lifeless, but I don't see how it applies to the playing.

i think my favorite region of this record is “handshake drugs” -> “wishful thinking” -> “company in my back,” like the world shuddering to a halt when you’re coming off speed

I feel this. Ghost is one of my favorite hangover albums. Sonically all the rough edges are sanded off, even on the noisy parts like the second half of "At Least That's What You Said," giving the whole record a gentle, cozy warm-blanket vibe. "Hissing radiator tunes." And the drums have that dry, muted thump characteristic of Jim O'Rourke's productions, and it suits the mood perfectly here. It's really obvious this record was made in the depths of Tweedy's opioid addiction--it sounds like being hungover and popping a few vicodin and feeling the edge come off. I'm really glad he got clean after this, but I'm also grateful he was able to produce this beautiful work of art under those unfortunate circumstances. Still my favorite Wilco record.

otm, used to play this a lot on "the morning after" in my heaviest drinking days. felt very comforting at the time, but probably explains why i don't revisit very often these days lol. to learn that jt was dealing with substance issues during its creation was an odd feeling. at the time, i thought it was an upgrade over yankee hotel foxtrot by just a bit, but i've cooled on it somewhat since. some absolutely gorgeous music on here, but nothing will ever top "theologians" for me. when it's all said and done, that's probably my favorite wilco song.

also i hate "i'm a wheel." just . . . ugh, no. stop being a wheel, it's not working.

Dang yall hungover people really started your day with the piercing guitar freakout on track 1? I would absolutely be skipping to "Hell Is Chrome" on a morning like that.

thesis: _the wilco book_ hummingbird is the best hummingbird that isn't a real bird.

exposition on _the wilco book_ and whathaveyou:
mostly obsolete by now, but this is where i first heard the alternate take of "hummingbird" and that's the best thing wilco ever did. it thankfully has showed up again and is easily heard on the proper rarities set. the rest of the music portion is generally highly entertaining for yhf/ghost era fans. peak 2000s ephemera. fun stuff. (three mics)

bonus track thoughts for ilxors: amnesiac comparison otm. that's the appeal for me. to be more specific, always thought the alt "hummingbird" was the band's attempt at a postal service kinda sound. can't wait to dig into the deluxe reissue; the yhf one was like an unnarrated longform documentary and am hoping for similar vibes here.

I blasted "Spiders (Kidsmoke)" the first time in 10 years a couple days ago and....it sounded labored.

yeah that's how nearly all of a ghost is born sounds, the live versions are universally better

it's frustrating because the material is some of their best but "at least that's what you said" is the only thing that's really done justice by the version on the album

i'm hoping the set of alternate takes from the reissue will prove to be a superior version of the album given how much better the version of "handshake drugs" is

AGIB seems to be a lot of folks' favorite Wilco album, but to me it's the first step in a long, slow decline. labored is a good criticism of it.

I like it a lot, and I also came to like SBS after I got over its dadrock sounds, I also love Star Wars as much as any Wilco and even think Cousin is pretty excellent. There are a few in between records with slim rewards but I’ve been regularly surprised at their ability to regroup and reach the peaks again.

the version of "hummingbird" on it is pretty cool at least

― ufo, Tuesday, November 26, 2024 12:22 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBF8rxC8E9k

"A Ghost is Born" is not bad, but it sort of is their post "YHF" "New Jersey." Regardless, it's a clear demarcation line, the last Tweedy made before getting sober and the last before adding Nels Cline. Most of the lineup of this album can play guitar, but I think it's also the last one where Tweedy is essentially the lead guitarist (dunno if it's before or after he took a few lessons with Richard Lloyd).

I was trying to figure out the last Wilco album that featured song titles that didn't ring a bell, and maybe it's because I live here and hear the group pretty often, it's surprisingly late in their discography. Weirdly, it may be "Star Wars," an album I know I liked yet still scans totally unfamiliar to me. "Schmilco" and "Ode to Joy," I'm pretty sure I've never heard them, for no good reason, though I feel like I heard a lovely song from the latter on a TV show or in a commercial or something. Maybe this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamTQr4kcKA

"Cruel Country" and "Cousins," I'm back to recognizing a couple of tracks on each, but again, I think that's because they are more recent and got some airplay here.

we discussed (i think? can't find it now) in another thread how Star Wars feels like a relatively small blip in their catalog because they surprise released it and, if i recall correctly, were experimenting with ... not promoting it? or, like, "what if we put out a record with no run-up / narrative" or something like that.

shame, as it's the best one post-YHF, imo.

xp love that song. all of the last ~5 albums have highs and lows. I prefer to listen to a playlist of my favorite songs from this period than the albums proper.

tweedy taking guitar lessons from richard lloyd was before a ghost is born, he was obsessed with marquee moon during the sessions & his solos were heavily inspired by it. the influence is particularly obvious on the b-side "kicking television" of course

xxpost "Love Is Everywhere" was in a Corona commercial that ran prominently on TV right at the beginning of the pandemic, featuring people on Zoom, neighbors toasting from their respective decks, stuff like that.

I'm The Man Who Loves You on YHF has Tweedy wailing away in the AGIB style... wonder when exactly he got the lessons

Some old Seymour Duncan press release I just found says: "For his thirty-fourth birthday, Tweedy received a private guitar lesson from Richard Lloyd of Television; Tweedy was a big fan of the group and was particularly fond of the guitar work, which he wanted to incorporate into his music." So if Tweedy is 57 now, that was 23 years ago, so 2001. Lloyd apparently flew out and they spent a day playing. A Q&A:

hello richard, this is adam. i read that you gave jeff tweedy a guitar lesson and was wondering about some of the things you talked about, seeing as how i love both his and your playing. hopefully you can shed some light on this. i plan on checking out some of the lessons on your site and appreciate them very much!

thanks, adam

Hello Adam,
Thank you for writing, and for your interest in Jeff Tweedy and myself. Unfortunately, private lessons are just that -- private. For that reason, I cannot answer your questions with respect to what might have taken place between us, but we are and have been friends for a rather longtime -- Wilco opened a number of shows for Matthew Sweet many years ago when I was on tour with Matthew. We all became warm friends then and remain so, even though Jeff lives in Chicago and I live in New York. His wife called me a couple of years ago because she wanted to get him a guitar lesson from me for his birthday. So I flew to Chicago and we spend the day together. And I just saw him a month or so ago in Brazil when we both played at the Tim Festival in Rio de Janeiro.

Best regards,
Richard Lloyd

https://www.richardlloyd.com/solute.htm

Helps explain Television's appearance at Solid Sound 2019.

i was always bewildered "kicking television" never made the album cut but "i'm a wheel" did

I assumed it was between one or the other. The studio KT has a really demented vocal delivery, so that could be why they chose I'm A Wheel

the problem with the rock songs from the agib sessions are that they're all too sterile on the album, it doesn't really feel like they're letting loose in the way that they need to for the songs to work

So precise, and tiring

i just wish they'd make a new album as good as their absurdly good live show, even the best track they released in the last decade ("bird without a tail") pales in comparison to how they play it live.

To be clear, the precision and weariness are the point of AGIB. For me it works really well. I know folks adore the more ragged edge of their performances but I like them in cerebral lockdown better.

i was relistening to AGIB during a drive yesterday and i was shocked at how the clunky the transitions in "Spiders" from the Neu to rock sections are.

Ya gotta give 'em credit for even trying, though. Outside of Stereolab, what other rockers were messing with the motorik back then?

Tortoise? Yo La Tengo?

Just a few years before, Primal Scream was recording with Jaki & Karoli.

...and they were sampling Can beats before that.

On the Nels tip, The Geraldine Fibbers did a Can cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkMLiRV3r2s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz4jcYHjqzw

all the alternate takes on the boxset are interesting (many are very different), but they aren't all clearly superior to the album versions like the "handshake drugs" version they released a few months ago

the version of "less than you think" here is really good though, i wish more of that sound had made it into the album

the first version of "hummingbird" here would of course be revelatory if it hadn't been released ages ago

i've only skimmed the "fundamental" jam sessions so far but they're a lot better than i thought they'd be