Music Criticism in Video Form

also I wonder how many of these people know that XRA's creator and chief writer is black, and that one of the other writers is a woman

will check that out cheers Dan

looked at D1stal's twitter on a hunch, and yup:

Hey @theneedledrop they tried to ruin my career a few months ago too for “wrong think". I’m fighting back as well.

— ol' gulag'd bastard (@DistalDub) October 7, 2017

Damn and @theneedledrop just destroys him in response —> https://t.co/squQaSPcaP

— ol' gulag'd bastard (@DistalDub) October 7, 2017

I'm gonna continue my streak of not fact-checking anything as an editor-in-chief of a nationally publicized magazine. Sweet Mcarthyism bro. https://t.co/eLXQAy0dx3

— ol' gulag'd bastard (@DistalDub) October 7, 2017

this stuff keeps making me turn over something I brought up on the Bill Hicks thread, which is how the alt-right/gamergate/whatever free speech steez is like a weaponized zombie political philosophy that's a reconstituted and repurposed leftover from the left's fights against the puritanical religious right in the 20th century. Except the internet basically rendered the religious right completely irrelevant and largely mute in the face of the overwhelming evidence that the general populace of America loves pornography, graphic violence, saying whatever-the-fuck, etc. That enemy is gone, rendered impotent in terms of culture wars - but the tactics and arguments and views developed to fight them (incl the "pushing the envelope"/"let's see how offensive we can be" styles of standup comedians, rappers/musicians, and various other cultural players) have hung around and been kept alive. But there is no Moral Majority or PMRC to fight against now. The only ones attempting to place limits (and these aren't even gov't-mandated limits, as in the past!) on what's acceptable cultural discourse are on the left, and so the fire gets turned on them. It's a weird ahistorical inversion.

I've been thinking that too, how so much of the "free speech" argument in the 80s/90s was coming from Jello Biafra, Ice T, Jane's Addiction, 2 Live Crew, Madonna, etc

http://i.imgur.com/Hc4NxgV.jpg

damn looking at that that fader dudes twitter he seems like a herb that shd get pwnd

The only ones attempting to place limits (and these aren't even gov't-mandated limits, as in the past!) on what's acceptable cultural discourse are on the left,

This isn't actually true, though, is it?

kneelingprotestsnfl.jpg

are you referring to this NFL flap?

lol xp

i had that shirt

NFL + a ton of campus examples (start here or here).

Here's one from today: http://www.philly.com/philly/education/drexel-professor-george-ciccariello-maher-twitter-20171010.html

idk those seem kind of different in nature and form to me from something like the Moral Majority, PMRC etc. which, while being informed (of course) by racial dynamics, were primarily focused on sex and violence.

whereas the links you cite p much all focus around white people complaining about their right to be racist, ie the alt-right's bread and butter

Well, my point is that there are also people on the right who are placing limits on what is acceptable cultural discourse, often with influence over powerful employers. I agree that the issues are different (maybe closer to the McCarthy era than to the PMRC/Moral Majority era).

Finally got around to watching the response video up there

The thing he just does not get is that the dick-swinging 4chan meme culture he enjoys is completely toxic and to be considered a decent human being you have to steer well clear, not use it as an excuse for unfunny jokes.

Also the way he keeps pushing up his glasses when he thinks he's making an important point can fuck right off.

>the dick-swinging 4chan meme culture he enjoys is completely toxic and to be considered a decent human being you have to steer well clear

the dick-swinging 4chan meme culture is also as mainstream as heavy metal music was in the 80s. and meme culture does not equate to alt-right, it's a online language mechanism for teens who want to keep ironic distance from two increasingly polarized & aggressive sides. as a 47 year old guy, it's disturbing that the most effective barbs are pointed at the overreaches of mainstream identity politics, so last year as this broke out of 4chan, I was vulnerable to Southern Poverty Law Center characterizations of it as coming explicitly from a core of alt-right ideology. Sure it might be a 'slippery slope'; by the time you're go to Free Speech rallies with a Kek flag you'll make some pretty intense new friends. but when you do an absolutely clueless expose like that Fader piece which smears someone as alt-right for using the same memes many teenagers are comfortable with using for humor, you've just turned into your parents calling their kid a ritual satanist because they put up a Motley Crue poster. Those memes whiney posted at least portray the fader journalist as hapless / overwhelmed; some of them actively attribute this as intentional misframing to take out the young competition.

Fantano's work makes me wince as a 47 year old man watching a guy in his early 30's channeling a teenaged audience and having conversations about mainstream black culture that I thought we'd never have to have again, or have ever -- it's really uncomfortable and disorienting for someone my age to watch someone spend 10 minutes on why half of us don't get to use the n-word, but damn if that isn't exactly where a number of 15 year old white kids who grew up under Kanye are at in 2017. And when he gets into the Meme Review, it takes even more for granted about the good faith of the audience. You can find some pretty scary things reflected back about youth culture, but the little I've seen of his videos I don't think it does 'progressives' (argh) any good to target Fantano and his audience of what, tens of millions, as the enemy.

half of us

which half is this?

There are many (or at least a few) meme cultures out there, but only one of them has a significant overlap with the at-right, and that's the one he's part of. That's not what I object to though, I just hate that fucking 4chan humour and can't stand it seeping through into the real world.

i'm with camaraderie

'80s metal wasn't damaging to anyone except the townies who didn't like Iron Maiden or w/e, i mean i think meme culture is a small part of a much larger, wider issue but i think it's kind of damaging and stupid more than it is ever actually funny.

I think Shakey's talk about old 90s censorship battles is relevant, not because the Moral Majority or other right-wing threats to speech have withered and died (would that it were so simple) but because at least the gamergate side of the alt-right does seem to understand all disagreements about content solely in terms of "censorship" from presumed prudes and moralizers, because (as I think I've gropingly hypothesized on the gamer racism thread) that's their reference point for all politics, period. Nerds of various stripes, but maybe especially comics and gamernerds, have been convincing themselves since the 16-bit era that, as a class, they are the freethinking and righteous battlers against bible-thumpers who want to take the blood out of Mortal Kombat.

who the fuck is distal

Just snagged my Last Jedi tickets

— ol' gulag'd bastard (@DistalDub) October 10, 2017

I don't think it does 'progressives' (argh) any good to target Fantano and his audience of what, tens of millions, as the enemy.

― Milton Parker, Tuesday, October 10, 2017 5:39 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a lot of what you're describing is true but this assumes that as an entity he's someone who *can be* engaged with. I agree that not attempting to comprehend the nuances of the memes ultimately damaged the article's credibility in a way that provided openings for people "defending" "fantano" but it's still being assumed he's, like, a critic w/ a rational approach to "the conversation" & not a sentient meme whose "politics" only extends as far as the boundaries allowed by 4chan.

i've lost touch with nearly all the subgenius people i knew...the ones i know are, like me, now middle-aged cranks

SotS was "founded" by approaching-middle-aged cranks like Ivan Stang, and early supporters included successful ad executives and media creatives. It was never nihilistic, just a middle finger to normalcy from the generation just ahead of mine. Meme culture from a generation just behind mine attempts similar things, just with less conventional literacy and a repulsive tolerance of racism, at least at its Xchan fonts. I'm not sure my generation really offered much in the way of cogent satirical negation, we were the ones who accepted the commercialization of punk and first endured Mountain Dew xtreme ads. Can we call Flying Spaghetti Monster ours? Perhaps.

As for Fader v. Fantano, it does stink of resentment at someone who unlike most media critics has turned what he loves into a livable salary. As for his deleted channel, I've never seen it, but satire does have a history of being misinterpreted. I don't share much in musical taste with Fantano, and am likely to disagree on the rare occasion he chooses to review an album I enjoy. But I can see how his enthusiasm could be infectious and appealing for others, for audiences that print criticism doesn't reach.

so what do you all say about the people who are doxxing and harassing those they don't like? feel like that behavior goes way beyond any heavy metal parking lot antics

sure it does, but I don't see anything inherently right-wing abt it

xp great post Milton

I'll readily admit to not being an expert on meme culture but given everything else in the Fader piece (some of which I was already aware of), I'm in no mind to give Fantano the benefit of the doubt about any of this. Like the absolute most generous interpretation I can think of is that he's incredibly naïve politically and is purely interested in appealing to two different crowds at once which a) would still be awful and b) would require him to display some degree contrition or (as D-40 says) willingness to engage after being called out, which he has not done, so fuck him.

What sort of engagement are you thinking of? I feel like having someone who obviously has a deep interest in black and popular culture and is nominally leftist and liberal be influential in meme world could be a good thing. I find his taste and opinions boring but he's not unconvincing in that defense video. Maybe memes are not in themselves regressive?

I know lots of "I don't know about this meme world" is going on, and fair enough, but please can we underline the difference between memes in general and 4chan shitposting memes in particular. This conversation is meaningless without this distinction.

(xpost) I guess it would mean entering into a discussion of some sort with his critics in a way that isn't so dismissive/defensive? I mean I know he's on twitter and apparently comes across more left-leaning on there but that seems like a separate thing from the persona/brand presented in the videos, which are primarily what he's known for and makes a living from. I think finding effective ways of engaging with and challenging toxic ideas is a wider and more general problem though.

Ehh I won't link to it but there's a 10-minute MDE youtube clip (which was linked to in an Atlantic article about World Peace) where Sam Hyde does a local stand-up routine full of stupid liberal-baiting and ethnic stereotypes. He's then followed by a woman comic, whom Sam proceeds to heckle, goading her into tapping him in the face with the mic and then grabbing her by the wrist, intimidating her to the point where she's screaming at him to leave. She manages to regain her composure enough to try to begin her set, but by this time, Sam has turned the entire room against her so they roar at her every time she tries to tell a joke, and she ends up walking off the stage. The whole thing is a sickening display of victimization for its own sake, and the fact that Sam displays it proudly on his Youtube channel only adds another lunatic dimension to the ordeal

And wouldnt you know it? The first chummy comment when you scroll down is theneedledrop, saying: "Looks like she got #triggered, Sammy boy"

There was a point where I'd been willing to take Fantano's rebuttal at face value, but that point has past. NV is right: dude's lying, or at least misrepresenting a whole bunch. Fuck him forever.

(& I'm not totally blameless here either: I've been known to be grimly fascinated with a lot of aspects of WP, but miss me with that real-life toxic harrassment shit)

(xposts) Sorry yeah that's a good point Camaraderie.

won't somebody please think of the memes

'80s metal wasn't damaging to anyone except the townies who didn't like Iron Maiden or w/e, i mean i think meme culture is a small part of a much larger, wider issue but i think it's kind of damaging and stupid more than it is ever actually funny.

― nomar, Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:23 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Let's not forget One in a Million or Sebastian Bach's Aids Kills Fags Dead shirt, metal culture was (and often is extremely toxic, racist and misogynistic - and still is, check the near daily attacks on Kim Kelly) and I grew up on that shit. Also metal was hugely pervasive.

won't somebody please think of the memes

― sick, fucking funny, and well tasty (katherine), Wednesday, October 11, 2017 12:55 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, just to be clear, I wanted it to be clarified because of posts like this

What sort of engagement are you thinking of? I feel like having someone who obviously has a deep interest in black and popular culture and is nominally leftist and liberal be influential in meme world could be a good thing. I find his taste and opinions boring but he's not unconvincing in that defense video. Maybe memes are not in themselves regressive?

― gospodin simmel, Wednesday, October 11, 2017 11:22 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

which imply that there is some sort of universal "meme world" which holds the key to communicating with young adults in all their diversity, rather than a smaller 4chan shitposter world, which is what we're unfortunately dealing with here.

fwiw i took katherine's post to be a sendup of gospodin simmel's take, and a good one.

Let's not forget One in a Million or Sebastian Bach's Aids Kills Fags Dead shirt, metal culture was (and often is extremely toxic, racist and misogynistic - and still is, check the near daily attacks on Kim Kelly) and I grew up on that shit. Also metal was hugely pervasive.

Far too many people still use the word 'fag'. Even in the UK and that seems to come from hanging out online as it's not something that I heard in the UK in the 80s or 90s.

It used to be the racists, misogynists and homophobes tended to be fans of more mainstream bands like the ones mentioned above but the ones that harass K1m are those from the more underground death metal dot org (a tiny site with a couple of right wing racist, misogynist arseholes running it and a few hundred users max) who were involved in 'gamergate' and have been trying to start 'metalgate' since.

These guys(of course they are guys) really are pretty much hated by everyone though and many feel the best way to counter them is to starve them of exhaustion. If you do make the mistake of going to their site you will feel pretty disgusted for doing so. Fuck them. They've gone after a few of my friends and they are the scum of the earth.

M@tt it must be worse for you that two of the things you love attract these neanderthals

without a doubt no group on the whole is homophobic than old school east coast street/lyrical rappers, the way they talk in DJ Vlad interviews is terrible

ok, three things..

xxxp Yeah ok, I agree with that. The toxicity and (apparent?) influence of the shitlord subgenre is making me forget the mundane memes I actually encounter a lot more of. Also agree that Fantano's defensive attitude isn't helpful. As far as engaging the batshit I find the ContraPoints yt channel really refreshing.

I believe Fantano is sincere that he is not alt-right and sincere about all of his rebuttals in the vid. At the same time, and what was not addressed in his video response, is that he is anti "SJW" and anti "tumblr feminist" which is a distinction I think is being lost here. Plenty of audience overlap, but I think he's definitely the typical online persona in that sense where he is extreme berniebro/4chan shitposter/reddit hivemind all at once. The reason he mingles with anyone alt-right is because he probably wants to talk to them about how SJWs are ruining culture, as far as I can tell.

He should have found a better way to critique SJW culture then. The left benefits from internal debate and discussion but not when one side makes common cause with the far right.

The broader point here is that you don't have to be aligned with the political right to be misogynist or racist.

an even broader point that there is nothing inherently racist about right wing ideology

the alt right *is* explicitly racist

xp lol ok

dunno why D1st@l comes up on here but I talk with him irl-ish (internet but I know him for non-internet reasons) & he's def alt-right, bringing up Frankfurt School to "refute" that progressives won't harm his interests, etc. didn't realize anyone else would care what he thinks though! lol twitter I guess, I don't use it much so I don't know if he has a rep there or whatever