it... yeah i'm not going to get into it
― maura, Friday, 22 September 2017 22:02 (seven years ago) link
i guess it's nice that a woman had a hit with a trap by numbers boast too, yay equality
― maura, Friday, 22 September 2017 22:03 (seven years ago) link
I think that song is just ok?? Don't really understand the adoration. It's obviously tied into ppl's overt identification w her but there are tons of female rappers who had buzz also doing no flocking freestyles, that this is the Kodak freestyle above all others is a neat bit of pr finesse
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Friday, 22 September 2017 23:10 (seven years ago) link
Iirc that's how anyone knows who Asian Doll is w/in rap, she broke out last year w a million view video of her no flocking freestyle (and I'm pretty sure it was on a now deleted SoundCloud from even earlier)
https://youtu.be/UU2-XKlKoEw
I mean it's a smart move if you're on her team to identify that a lot of female rappers were connecting through these Kodak freestyles but for me at least the awareness of this saviness doesn't help me fall for the song any more
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Friday, 22 September 2017 23:16 (seven years ago) link
Pr finnesse is a little unfair, she's obviously a star and the song is fine, I like it. but it's not as exciting to me as anything by so many other female artists that no one else covers
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Friday, 22 September 2017 23:21 (seven years ago) link
if there were so many female rappers, or black women performing music of any genre, garnering the level of attention and success this song has i wouldn't have bothered to make that post. this thread is about the charts as a reflection of what/who's popping and what/who's getting pushed to the back -- so yes, that a black woman whom many had never heard of before this song broke is likely to top the singles chart (w/ her own single, not as a guest) is very noteworthy to me. literally the only black woman to top the hot 100 with her own single has been rihanna going all the way back to two-thousand-freaking-nine! and the only others to even come close in the interim were, like rihanna, also huge stars who'd established themselves during the period when crossover from black radio was still fairly commonplace.
obviously it's not to say that *poof* this song goes #1 and now the tides will turn for black women and women more broadly on the charts. but it's something.
apologies if i accidentally turned this thread into the place where we discuss whether we like this song and feel its success is deserved.
― dyl, Saturday, 23 September 2017 01:47 (six years ago) link
i'm not saying its not noteworthy, im responding to people saying its 'pretty much perfect' and 'an astonishing achievement.' its a fuckin no flocking freestyle, its fine. in the context, conservative music labels taking a chance on a social media star who'd already been minted into celebrity by reality television does not strike me as some bold new moment, i mean its great she has success but to me it just points to how stacked the system is against 99% of female artists
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 23 September 2017 04:06 (six years ago) link
and forgive me if it makes it sound like im 'against' cardi b or something, this is also a professional frustration w people who would never in a million years cover cupcakke/rico nasty/asian doll/cuban doll/molly brazy/bali baby etc etc etc caping for this great victory for women as if it isn't their deference to 'what's buzzing' (after a massive push from a major label w/ great A&R) that reinforces these kinds of Pyrrhic "victories"
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 23 September 2017 04:09 (six years ago) link
d40 otm
― maura, Saturday, 23 September 2017 11:42 (six years ago) link
The truth is people just want to stand behind shit they "know" will succeed bc they're incapable about going out on a ledge for art on merits beyond scalability, especially when it comes to rap where there's this crisis of authenticity & ppl take "I hear it coming out of cars" as a legit recommendation engine as if lots of generic bullshit doesn't take off all the time
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, 23 September 2017 17:44 (six years ago) link
well it's no. 1 now
― sick, fucking funny, and well tasty (katherine), Monday, 25 September 2017 16:35 (six years ago) link
cupcakke/rico nasty/asian doll/cuban doll/molly brazy/bali baby
Not heard any of these yet but the names and associations behind them alone are fascinating in a marketing sense.
― nashwan, Monday, 25 September 2017 16:48 (six years ago) link
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/black-musicians-on-being-boxed-in-by-randb-and-rap-expectations-we-fit-in-so-many-things/
Moses Sumney, Kami and Dawn Richard...
― curmudgeon, Monday, 16 October 2017 17:25 (six years ago) link
good article -- dawn's words on the expected trajectory for a black artist (esp black woman artist) are very insightful
― dyl, Monday, 16 October 2017 18:05 (six years ago) link
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/how-hip-hop-edged-grittier-rb-singers-out-of-the-mainstream-w504678
It's all rap's fault...(well sorta) says writer Elias Light and those interviewed
Why did the doors close for deep and gritty vocalists, who were an important part of R&B's mainstream as the genre progressed through soul, funk, Quiet Storm, disco, Eighties synth fusions, house music and the hip-hop-inflected mutations of the Nineties? More than 20 conversations* with artists, producers, label executives and radio programmers indicate that low-register R&B singers were squeezed on two sides at the turn of the millennium: First, rappers took over the vocal ranges that once belonged to R&B, and then struggling labels abandoned R&B groups, which traditionally supported a wide variety of voices. These shifts were compounded as mainstream radio stopped playing R&B songs, which limited the avenues of exposure for all R&B singers but especially hurt those who favor low, throaty intonations.
― curmudgeon, Monday, 16 October 2017 18:22 (six years ago) link
Lower register singers still exist in the radio niche known as Urban Adult Contemporary. However, Top 40 stations are accepting very few R&B songs – analyzing Billboard charts shows that in 1996, 26 singles from singers made it from the mainstream R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay chart to the Pop Airplay chart; last year, that number fell to five**.
** The five singers to cross over were Beyoncé, Tory Lanez, the Weeknd, John Legend and PartyNextDoor. Rihanna gets major support at pop radio, so she is not considered an R&B artist for these purposes; Drake is counted as a rapper. Even if you chose to count both those artists as R&B singers, the number of crossover singles from singers has still fallen from 26 to 11.
― curmudgeon, Monday, 16 October 2017 18:28 (six years ago) link
that is also a very nice article! but i don't think that's the right way to interpret it
― dyl, Monday, 16 October 2017 22:16 (six years ago) link
It's a bit awkward in its interpretation of rap and r'n'b and how program directors make their choices
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 17 October 2017 14:31 (six years ago) link
Songwriter/producer Warren "Oak" Felder (Alessia Cara, Kehlani) shares a similar story. "There was one particular artist I'm not going to name, but we sat down with their team [in 2011] and they wrote out other genre names to call the music," he remembers. "The names were like, 'soulful noir.' That's how toxic that word had become."
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 14:45 (six years ago) link
I'm probably wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but my first thought was "I really hope that isn't Usher"
― sick, fucking funny, and well tasty (katherine), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 15:26 (six years ago) link
also I don't really get the argument here, big voices and raspy voices and low voices are not mutually exclusive.
― sick, fucking funny, and well tasty (katherine), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 15:30 (six years ago) link
I am having trouble getting past the conflation of "low" with "rough" right at the beginning of the article.
― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 16:26 (six years ago) link
(I thought I had written "like katherine" in that post, oops.)
― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 16:27 (six years ago) link
Also, Nelly is a terrible example because he doesn't have I would term a "low" voice.
― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 16:28 (six years ago) link
i met meshell ndgeocello--this was maybe 3 years ago, maybe longer--i remember her saying that exact same thesis to me (as the RS article)
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 17:58 (six years ago) link
I don't think it's an unreasonable thesis but it's not presented very well in that article.
― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 17:59 (six years ago) link
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Tuesday, October 17, 2017
yeah she said something similar at EMP a couple years ago
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 18:21 (six years ago) link
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-pop-diva-identity-crisis-1508348017
"In the age of hip-hop, female pop stars are facing an identity crisis.
In July, R&B/hip-hop surpassed rock for the first time to officially become the biggest music genre in America, according to Nielsen Music, which tracks online streams and digital and physical albums. As of Oct. 12, R&B/hip-hop has driven 24% of music consumption in 2017—more than rock’s 21% and double pop’s 12% share."
― skip, Friday, 20 October 2017 05:33 (six years ago) link
Imagine if pop radio was open to even more r'n'b. Can't access full WSJ article. Does it propose a new business plan for Taylor Swift?
― curmudgeon, Monday, 23 October 2017 16:23 (six years ago) link
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/20-best-pop-albums-of-2017-w513516
Am pretty sure that all of the critics who wrote for this like r'n'b and rap (and I like their writing), but the definition of pop used here seems kinda rockist and blue-eyed
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 19:48 (six years ago) link
I guess Bruno Mars was a late 2016 release, so that's why he wasn't included.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 19:56 (six years ago) link
what would you have swapped in that doesn’t?also have you seen the jingle ball lineups
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 19:57 (six years ago) link
he was on the 2016 listhttp://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/20-best-pop-albums-of-2016-w455459/bruno-mars-24k-magic-w455593
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 19:58 (six years ago) link
i mean i understand your point but pop as it is currently staked our in the us is very white (with some latinx tinges). there was no rap or r&b artist on the lineup for the jingle ball i went to sunday in boston and the only mcs on the nationwide bill were logic and g eazy
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:00 (six years ago) link
(and last year there were r&b and hip hop lists too)
i wish pop radio played more r&b. it is criminal that beyoncé needed to hop on a freaking ed sheeran song in order to top the charts for the first time this decade
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:03 (six years ago) link
So pop 2017 is just jingle ball emo, guitar strum & tasteful dance beat, retro rock, and Sam Smith paying homage to old soul singers?
The list finds space for Amber Coffman, Blondie and Aimee Mann who are not topping the charts these days, but doesn't find room for retro focused or similarly artisinal African-American artists, or African-American artists who are in the charts redefining pop
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:08 (six years ago) link
can you name some? not being confrontational just genuinely curious
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:13 (six years ago) link
Curtis Harding, Daniel Caesar, Ms. Jody, Miguel, Stokley Williams and can't the rap that makes the chart count as pop
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:19 (six years ago) link
How about Mary J. Blige too
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:22 (six years ago) link
as i noted earlier this likely isn’t the only genre list
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:24 (six years ago) link
so maybe wait until they’ve all rolled out and then nitpick
going to check out ms jody though, thanks
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:25 (six years ago) link
No problem.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:30 (six years ago) link
I get that they're defining "pop" as music that is sung and includes melodic hooks, it's just interesting who in 2017 both on and off the charts gets to be included in that definition and who does not.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:35 (six years ago) link
well it's also defined in part by label and radio and streaming-playlist siloing. like kelly clarkson probably won't make the r&b list, you know?
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:41 (six years ago) link
And Aimee Mann gets to be pop, rock and probably Americana too.
Not exactly related, but did you see this article
http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/defining-the-decade-in-pop-music.html
It’s about Antonoff style pop and its weaknesses
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 20:53 (six years ago) link
If Kelly Clarkson could sing like Teena Marie she could probably be pop and r’n’b.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 21:01 (six years ago) link
i did see that piece and i agree with a lot of it. pop radio this year was mostly boring - the combined influence of those big songwriting camps and the ever-more-concentrated creation of radio playlists has been deathly
and yeah the term "adult album alternative" (where any putative mann singles would line up) does a lot of heavy lifting as far as positioning
― maura, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 21:10 (six years ago) link
Ms. Jody btw appeals largely to over 50 poc who like to line dance and are at the top end of the adult r’n’b listening bracket even if some of their synth and entendre filled southern soul faves don’t get played on such outlets.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 December 2017 21:26 (six years ago) link