Smashing Pumpkins: Fresh Fruit or Rotten Veg?

There isn't a song I dislike there, though, which I guess says something!

hehe well the last Metro show was 4 and change... and I just realized I left off Glass and the Ghost Children!

How he went from archetype and beloved emo rockstar to complete, egotistical dumbass

he was always the latter tho, there's no real transformation here

"What's your sign?"

Basically, the evolution of Corgan's image directly correlates to how well the music press got to know him.

he was always the latter tho, there's no real transformation here

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:13 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You're probably right. My teenage self (was 15 when Gish came out and was a fan) was blind to that side. I would say he's gotten more 'grotesque'. But even that doesn't matter. What matters is the huge decline in quality of his songs after Machina.

(Flappy: I'd love to hear Set The Ray To Jerry live!)

I love this performance from 1997, uploaded fairly recently (in the last few years at least...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg14N6X0GOE

Basically, the evolution of Corgan's image directly correlates to how well the music press got to know him.

― this iphone speaks many languages (DJP), Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:21 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The turning point was the release of Adore. Before 1998, Billy could do no wrong. After the massive success of MCIS, he had a great late '96 - 1997 with "Eye," those Batman songs, TAFH... when Adore didn't do well, he just completely lost it, blaming the fans, panicking, getting the original four back together in the fall of 1998 to do one final RAWK album... keep in mind that Adore was originally meant to be a Billy Corgan solo album... he just flew way too close to the sun, was completely overexposed by 1998, and by the time Machina came out in early 2000, it was totally eclipsed by nu-metal in the mainstream and then later on by Kid A: Radiohead were now the modern rock band pushing the genre forward. Billy was suddenly a dinosaur. That's when he blew up the ship. Obviously everything since then has been a disaster to differing degrees... that first Zwan show is incredible, I mean "Chrysanthemum" is one of my favorite songs Billy's ever written, a remarkably clear-headed and optimistic look back at the history of SP but still determined to move forward. "A flower's still a flower crushed to dust inside my hand / We were going somewhere." and we all know how that turned out...

ha, my dad just pointed out that the first 10 seconds of this Cream song sound remarkably similar to one of SP's bigger hits...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyx7NZqy0XE

(just a couple chords, but still. i know he actually ripped off "Pleasure" by the Frogs...)

xp

Some huge broad strokes in that summation.

Machina wasn't "eclipsed" by Kid A. It was nowhere near as good or interesting. You can't argue Radiohead stole his sunshine or whatever, or that it was an album that was behind the times. It just wasn't up to the standard.

I think your summary lacks the stuff with Melvoin/Chamberlin (and to kick off the misery, Bernadette O'brien's death). After that Corgan transformed from a ~very serious artist~ into I-just-want-to-jam-and-rawk Billy. The live jams got longer, he veered into Status Quo/Motley Crue terrain live. He wanted to have "fun". He *wanted* to be that rock dinosaur. Which is fair enough but it was detrimental to his song writing. Zwan's s/t has two or three classic songs, and those were p much the last good songs he wrote.

I'm not arguing Radiohead stole his sunshine, but Billy gambled in 1998 on moving SP forward with Adore in the same way that Radiohead gambled and won with Kid A. You're right, Adore is the Kid A analogue. I just meant that by 2000, SP was a dinosaur act that had failed in its attempt to progress. I don't think he wanted to be a dinosaur - he wanted to be on the cutting edge, like he said in every promotional interview for MCIS in 1995 and again in early 1998. He settled for being a rock parody when he realized that's all that was left. The misery of the summer of 1996 played into his initial decision to make a solo album. Can't argue with the decline in his songwriting, and his second-guessing himself and leaving the best songs from a particular era off the record (this applies to Machina I, Mary Star, Zeitgeist).

MACHINA/The Machines of God is very much the work of someone who wants to be a "very serious artist" ...

... particularly in the way that it was originally envisioned, this massive double CD album with a Ziggy Stardust-inspired concept...

Oh, that's true, but the song writing doesn't match the ambition. Loose riffs sink ships.

(and again, I like the album, but it's not up to par with anything they'd done previously).

But it's an incomplete work. It would've been a "very serious" epic if D'arcy had stuck around for the planned album cycle where they were going to (oh my god...) stay in character as Glass, etc. once that all fell apart, Billy just sort of ran out the clock. he's said as much

I think there's a great double album there though, I've really warmed to the Machinas in the last couple years... "I of the Mourning" especially, I love this verse:

I blow the dust off my guitar
In the attic with the star
I read your letter to feel better
My tears upon the faded ink

but again, many of the best songs are on Machina II (Vanity, If There is a God, Slow Dawn, Real Love, Dross, Home, Try v1...)

There's a couple of tracks I don't like on there - 'The Crying Tree of Mercury' and 'Heavy Metal Machine' particularly, but also 'Blue Skies Bring Tears' ... I love the rest.

yeah those are trash, although when I saw him do Crying Tree of Mercury in 2015 I was sort of won over... for once he put his guitar down and just sang, did almost like a lounge singer impression, wandering around the stage, it was cool...

I know some old heads love the Arising version of BSBT but I still find it hopelessly dull. Heavy Metal Machine is bar none the worst SP1 song.

"crying tree" rules, "blue skies" rules as a fast song and feels ponderous and overwrought when it's slowed down, "heavy metal machine" imo is the only real bad song on that record and it's soooo bad

xpost:

Yeah, I agree... I find 'Blue Skies Bring Tears' dull in all versions. I'd probably like 'The Crying Tree of Mercury' if it had been arranged/produced differently, but on the album it drrrrrrags, which is strange given that it's pretty short by Pumpkins standards.

it's also got that honking synth trumpet at the beginning, it's just an instant turnoff... like the very beginning of Raindrops + Sunshowers (RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYNE)

the demo/work version of Raindrops rules, perhaps pedestrian for this era of Pumpkins but fuck man Billy's instincts were so off at this point. song starts at 51:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI_wQAO5Qn8&t=3093s

whoops. 51:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI_wQAO5Qn8

Yeah, the synth trumpet is quite obnoxious... I like 'Raindrops + Sunshowers', though!

Love the chorus of "Heavy Metal Machine" and you cannot gainsay me.

I remember a few folks taking the "if I were dead/would my records sell?" thing as a Cobain slight, even when aware that Corgan was singing in character for a lot of those songs...

i was wondering why there was so much recent activity on this thread. if they do get back together i might have to move up the Smashing Pumpkins artist poll to celebrate.

I had somehow missed this from his teashop web page. I hope he's always there at the bar like that. "CAN I HELP YOU."

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/523dcb12e4b0534df7dd3dc4/t/597246dc20099e6089a55970/1500661469550/?format=750w

"What...uh...tea is on off--"

"THIS IS MY INTENSE BLOOD TEA. I MADE IT FROM FORMER BANDMATES."

the place is pretty cool. i was in Chicago two and a half years ago and goaded my bandmates into going. the stimulus tea is really good. i got a copy of the Adore reissue there, Billy wrote all the price tags on everything.

If the Smashing Pumpkins hadn't taken off that may very well have been a pic of Corgan's daily existence. It's just as well Corgan went into music, because I sure as hell struggle to picture him in pretty much every other line of work.

"Uh, Billy, these photocopies aren't very cle..."

"I AM AN ARTIST AHEAD OF MY TIME. CALL ME WILLIAM."

He looks like he's trying to scare neighborhood kids away from his shop.

Going back to the theoretical setlist, I'd like to see them come out to "Mellon Collie" in the background and open with "Cherub Rock." They'd have to do that, right? And then something from Gish, maybe "Bury Me," then ideally bounce around a lot from the different eras...hell, I could even do with "Tarantula" and "The Chimera" (some of the later stuff is good!). And if they did "Whir," "Porcelina," "Mayonaise" (obviously), and some of the pretty songs from Machina II (of which there are several), I'd be very happy.

pass out strawberry margaritas to the crowd and open with an Echo & the Bunnymen cover

Billy could sub for Chris Cornell in Soundgarden how great would that be

that "crush" rehearsal video is amazing

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Wednesday, July 26, 2017 1:09 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

All I needed to hear tbrr

Haha ok thats from the early 90s nm

6:52 = pinnacle of all rock music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdjIdc9-13U

lmao hoooooly fucking shit, he listed that Strat at 1 MILLION DOLLARS 😂

https://reverb.com/shop/the-official-billy-corgan-reverb-shop

lol, and that drum machine used for "1979"? i got it new from Amazon a couple months ago for less than a hundred bucks. this is so fucking funny ahahahahhahahahahaha

Well, at least he's got "Make An Offer" activated.

For reference on the guitar price:

http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/10-most-expensive-guitars-ever-so-far

the drum machine is killing me. you can buy that exact same model right now - new - for a hundred bucks or so. the "1979" beat is pretty simple, anyone can recreate it. ahahahhahahahhhahah this is so great

The most expensive item to sell thus far is an Ovation acoustic for $15K. It was used to record Mayonaise, which is my favorite jam of theirs, so seems reasonableish, maybe? It's about a tenfold markup.

https://reverb.com/item/6319266-ovation-elite-1758-12-string-1990-owned-by-billy-corgan-siamese-dream-mayonaise

yes that's very reasonable, Mayonaise is one of their most famous & beloved songs. I didn't expect any of this stuff to be listed above 50k but wow, Bill surprises again.

'Mayonaise' is okay - probably wouldn't make a list of my 30 favourite Pumpkins tracks, but I like it fine. Awful title for a song, though... I've never liked it.

I've never cared much for it either, never understood the intense love for it. even for Billy, "I - JUST - WANT - TO BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE - ME!" is just a little too on the nose. then again, do birds fly? Good song, but it wouldn't even make my top 50.

agreed abt the title but y'all are crazy, crown jewel of the album imho

otm